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Forum Activity by Paquito

Infinitus Corsair
Esoteric Allusion
PaquitoI'll grant that GRRM screwed the show-runners by failing to deliver his books, as promised. They intentionally slowed down the pace of the show during seasons 4 and 5 to give Martin time to write, and I'm sure they were horrified when they realized he couldn't deliver. All of a sudden they have to write Season 6, and have to deal with an audience whose interest is starting to wane. So realistic timelines are sacrificed to achieve a pace that'll put them back on track.

But I still don't think that excuses Dorne, or Arya's Bravos storyline, or having Jaime rape Cersei, etc etc.

Season 5 felt extremely rushed. After A Storm of Swords, Martin's next two works, originally meant to be one book, had some pacing problems and expanded a bunch of story threads all at once. It even got worse inbetween Feast and Dance. Adapting this was always going to be hard and the show ended up condensing a lot in a way that felt rushed.

Martin famously writes ?as he goes along, so the story probably isn't even all that worked out yet. He mostly likely gave the show writers the major plot developments he has in mind without much connective tissue and let them figure it out. Because he's the best writer associated with the show, by far, everything suffers without having his best of to draw from. The TV show has always been at its best when it's able to edit Martin down to his strong-points and add flourishes that highlight them for the TV medium. It really screwed things up when he let the show outpace his material.

Martin had been writing an episode for the show every year, some really good ones, but he stopped that to try to pick up the pace on Winds of Winter. He probably spent that time trying to get his loving odes to soup just right.

On the other hand, "Hardhome" is the best episode of the show and they made up the whole thing.

That could be an outlier. I think it's harder for you to judge the show on its own merits; your memory of what you enjoyed from the books seems to pollute your perception of the show. At least, that's what your take on Arya's character development suggests.
Jul 20, 2017 10:45 AM
Esoteric Allusion
PaquitoI'll grant that GRRM screwed the show-runners by failing to deliver his books, as promised. They intentionally slowed down the pace of the show during seasons 4 and 5 to give Martin time to write, and I'm sure they were horrified when they realized he couldn't deliver. All of a sudden they have to write Season 6, and have to deal with an audience whose interest is starting to wane. So realistic timelines are sacrificed to achieve a pace that'll put them back on track.

But I still don't think that excuses Dorne, or Arya's Bravos storyline, or having Jaime rape Cersei, etc etc.

Season 5 felt extremely rushed. After A Storm of Swords, Martin's next two works, originally meant to be one book, had some pacing problems and expanded a bunch of story threads all at once. It even got worse inbetween Feast and Dance. Adapting this was always going to be hard and the show ended up condensing a lot in a way that felt rushed.

Martin famously writes ?as he goes along, so the story probably isn't even all that worked out yet. He mostly likely gave the show writers the major plot developments he has in mind without much connective tissue and let them figure it out. Because he's the best writer associated with the show, by far, everything suffers without having his best of to draw from. The TV show has always been at its best when it's able to edit Martin down to his strong-points and add flourishes that highlight them for the TV medium. It really screwed things up when he let the show outpace his material.

Martin had been writing an episode for the show every year, some really good ones, but he stopped that to try to pick up the pace on Winds of Winter. He probably spent that time trying to get his loving odes to soup just right.

It may have been season 5 where the pace picked up, but they definitely slowed down the pace for at least one season.
Jul 20, 2017 10:42 AM
I'll grant that GRRM screwed the show-runners by failing to deliver his books, as promised. They intentionally slowed down the pace of the show during seasons 4 and 5 to give Martin time to write, and I'm sure they were horrified when they realized he couldn't deliver. All of a sudden they have to write Season 6, and have to deal with an audience whose interest is starting to wane. So realistic timelines are sacrificed to achieve a pace that'll put them back on track.

But I still don't think that excuses Dorne, or Arya's Bravos storyline, or having Jaime rape Cersei, etc etc.
Jul 20, 2017 4:18 AM
Zuben
Esoteric Allusion
Paquito
whathaveicreatedAnd of course we're supposed to have mixed feelings about the Arya Frey massacre. That's the whole point of the show: revenge is never sweet or without consequences and all human vendettas are petty distractions in the face of the imminent supernatural threat of the Others.

1) The show doesn't have a point, outside of advancing its plot. Yes, you can come up with overarching themes that you think fits the story, but I haven't heard GRRM claim that's what he's building his story around.

2) The scene, as directed, doesn't give us any reason to have mixed feelings about the slaughter, and gives us plenty of reasons to feel good about it. I'd bet cash that there won't be negative consequences to Arya's actions here.

3) This show used to be a deconstruction of the genre. Since season 1, we've desired Arya to become Inigo Montoya, but what would really happen to a child who has witnessed her family slaughtered, who's been harboring hatred for those she deems responsible, and whose been mentored by killers and assassins? If the show stayed true to its roots, we'd see Arya get her revenge, but at the cost of her humanity. Seeing her achieve her goal wouldn't be something we'd be eager to celebrate. But the show's strayed from its roots, and we're going to end up with Inigo Montoya.

I agree with this. The series main schtick is to be to high fantasy what Unforgiven was to westerns. The show seems to have lost its way in that regard because the show runners like fist-pumping moments.

The quality of the show has definitely been in decline over the past couple of years. My chief complaint would be cutting corners on the narrative for convenience, especially with reliance on deus ex machina moments. I can see the argument that they had to because of Martin's pacing issues in his last work, but now that they've struck out on their own, it's worse than ever.

If anything was jarring to me in this episode, it wasn't Ed Sheeran. It was Euron's massive fleet when no time at all appears to have passed. That's some lazy-ass writing.

We don't know that the show has lost it's way in that regard because we don't know if the books will handle the two major "fist pumping" scenes thus far, Jon Snows victory over Ramsay and Arya's slaughtering of the Frey's, with any real difference. Deus Ex moments, like the sudden appearance of the Vale calvary may be similarly portrayed in the books.?

Why does it matter what the books do, at this point? It should have been possible for the show to draw on the book's strengths, while avoiding whatever missteps it made. I remember, early on, book readers being cautiously optimistic that this would happen.
Jul 20, 2017 1:03 AM
Infinitus Corsair
Meow
Zuben
Esoteric Allusion
Paquito
whathaveicreatedAnd of course we're supposed to have mixed feelings about the Arya Frey massacre. That's the whole point of the show: revenge is never sweet or without consequences and all human vendettas are petty distractions in the face of the imminent supernatural threat of the Others.

1) The show doesn't have a point, outside of advancing its plot. Yes, you can come up with overarching themes that you think fits the story, but I haven't heard GRRM claim that's what he's building his story around.

2) The scene, as directed, doesn't give us any reason to have mixed feelings about the slaughter, and gives us plenty of reasons to feel good about it. I'd bet cash that there won't be negative consequences to Arya's actions here.

3) This show used to be a deconstruction of the genre. Since season 1, we've desired Arya to become Inigo Montoya, but what would really happen to a child who has witnessed her family slaughtered, who's been harboring hatred for those she deems responsible, and whose been mentored by killers and assassins? If the show stayed true to its roots, we'd see Arya get her revenge, but at the cost of her humanity. Seeing her achieve her goal wouldn't be something we'd be eager to celebrate. But the show's strayed from its roots, and we're going to end up with Inigo Montoya.

I agree with this. The series main schtick is to be to high fantasy what Unforgiven was to westerns. The show seems to have lost its way in that regard because the show runners like fist-pumping moments.

The quality of the show has definitely been in decline over the past couple of years. My chief complaint would be cutting corners on the narrative for convenience, especially with reliance on deus ex machina moments. I can see the argument that they had to because of Martin's pacing issues in his last work, but now that they've struck out on their own, it's worse than ever.

If anything was jarring to me in this episode, it wasn't Ed Sheeran. It was Euron's massive fleet when no time at all appears to have passed. That's some lazy-ass writing.

We don't know that the show has lost it's way in that regard because we don't know if the books will handle the two major "fist pumping" scenes thus far, Jon Snows victory over Ramsay and Arya's slaughtering of the Frey's, with any real difference. Deus Ex moments, like the sudden appearance of the Vale calvary may be similarly portrayed in the books.?

Also, a common narrative tactic is get the audience to feel the joy of revenge only to find out that it complicated things more than we originally expected, which may be the case with Arya and the Freys. Doing so makes the audience feel complicit in the fallout.

It is likely, however, that in the books Arya's revenge is delivered by a different character, one who is not in the show, and whose method and style of revenge may be far grimmer and less easy to digest than swift, relatively bloodless victory of last episode's cold open.

I was gonna say her victory over Frey is going to make us feel bad when she descends even farther into sadistic psychopathy and pulls something like this on someone we also like. Because Arya is, in fact, a psychopath.

But she is kind of a sociopath and has been for a while. I don't remember how the show treated it but there's a chilling moment in Storm of Swords where she's trying to sell her horse for money to book passage on a ship to Braavos and she briefly--and very casually--considers killing and robbing the merchant and dissuades herself only because it would be too hard to conceal at the time.

Show-Arya isn't being presented this way, at all. The closest to a chilling moment would be after she slew the soldier that stole Needle. You could say she had a creepy smile as she was riding away.
Jul 20, 2017 12:51 AM
whathaveicreatedI'm glad Paquito has found a show that's more his speed, maybe he can stay out of this thread now.

pwnd
Jul 18, 2017 5:04 PM
Incidentally, as I fapped along to WHIC's wife's goat-fucking live stream, I thought to myself "of course we're supposed to be a little ill-at-ease. After all, this woman is taking advantage of an animal that can't consent."

It then occurred to me that WHIC's wife's goat-fucking videos formed a broader commentary on mankind's exploitative relationship with the environment. I said as much in the chat window, and a viewer named Sorcerer Supreme Nameless enthusiastically agreed, adding, "this is what art is all about".
Jul 18, 2017 11:56 AM
whathaveicreatedTHE ENTIRE SHOW IS ABOUT HOW REVENGE FUCKS THINGS UP AND HOW SNOW DEMONS WANT TO KILL ALL HUMANS BUT THE HUMANS ARE TOO BUSY FISTING AND MURDERING EACHOTHER TO NOTICE

I just remembered we had this discussion last year:

JeanGame of Thrones is certainly about something. Many somethings, in fact. What does it mean to be a good leader? Is idealism viable? Do the ends justify the means? Is it possible to wield great power and be moral? Is the struggle for power ultimately meaningless? On and on, a few of them solid thematic through lines.

I think most narrative fiction can't help but be about something. Its effectiveness lies in how clearly and intelligently its themes are communicated and how expertly the plot and characters reflect those themes.

Right?

NimChimpskyOkay, fine. Yes, GoT features a lot of themes. But it doesn't explore them in any deep, probing way. It's more of a soap opera, where every episode is just a slice of the ongoing story, checking in on characters, and continuing on. That's fine, it's often amazing, but it's not about the themes you mentioned, and it sometimes seems to touch them in spite of itself more than in any concerted way.

ZubenGoT is about something in the way that any story about people that has conflict is about something. The themes are perfunctory though, and mostly help maneuver between plot points as opposed to communicate something about, say, the human condition, or the nature of political power, or how marginalized members of society demonstrate resilience or etc etc. What you're thinking about is who is going to get stabbed or fucked, or fuck stabbed next. That's not to say that you don't care about the characters, that's to say that they don't challenge your preconceptions in any way (outside of the famously over played fact that Martin is willing to kill off major protagonists).

PaquitoThe GOT writers usually pick a theme to give a given episode a sense of cohesion, especially when they have to check in on a ton of storylines. For example, this past episode was about reunions. But those themes are in service of making the narrative more palatable, rather than being the thing the show is about.

Given the nature of the plot, there are definitely over-arching themes you can say apply to the series as a whole, but it's still the case that when Martin began writing A Song of Ice and Fire, he wasn't setting out to explore any particular theme. He was intent on writing a plot so complicated that it could never be adapted to TV of Film.


Congrats, WHIC. You're on team Jean.
Jul 18, 2017 11:39 AM
whathaveicreated
Paquito
whathaveicreatedJesus, Paquito, you fucking black and white ass Rule Boy. The least subtle show in the history of television is too nuanced for you.

I'm saying you guys are projecting nuance into the least subtle show in the history of television.


THE ENTIRE SHOW IS ABOUT HOW REVENGE FUCKS THINGS UP AND HOW SNOW DEMONS WANT TO KILL ALL HUMANS BUT THE HUMANS ARE TOO BUSY FISTING AND MURDERING EACHOTHER TO NOTICE

Imma go watch your wife's goat-fucking livestream. Get back to me when Arya's revenge on the Freys fucks things up.
Jul 18, 2017 3:44 AM
whathaveicreatedJesus, Paquito, you fucking black and white ass Rule Boy. The least subtle show in the history of television is too nuanced for you.

I'm saying you guys are projecting nuance into the least subtle show in the history of television.
Jul 18, 2017 3:31 AM
Infinitus Corsair
Paquito
whathaveicreatedAnd of course we're supposed to have mixed feelings about the Arya Frey massacre. That's the whole point of the show: revenge is never sweet or without consequences and all human vendettas are petty distractions in the face of the imminent supernatural threat of the Others.

1) The show doesn't have a point, outside of advancing its plot. Yes, you can come up with overarching themes that you think fits the story, but I haven't heard GRRM claim that's what he's building his story around.

You think you need the author to tell if/what the point of a piece of art is?

No, but you guys are reading things into Arya's scenes that aren't supported by anything other than your assumptions about what you think the audience "should" be feeling or, in WHIC's case, what he thinks the point of the show is.
Jul 18, 2017 3:24 AM
whathaveicreatedAnd of course we're supposed to have mixed feelings about the Arya Frey massacre. That's the whole point of the show: revenge is never sweet or without consequences and all human vendettas are petty distractions in the face of the imminent supernatural threat of the Others.

1) The show doesn't have a point, outside of advancing its plot. Yes, you can come up with overarching themes that you think fits the story, but I haven't heard GRRM claim that's what he's building his story around.

2) The scene, as directed, doesn't give us any reason to have mixed feelings about the slaughter, and gives us plenty of reasons to feel good about it. I'd bet cash that there won't be negative consequences to Arya's actions here.

3) This show used to be a deconstruction of the genre. Since season 1, we've desired Arya to become Inigo Montoya, but what would really happen to a child who has witnessed her family slaughtered, who's been harboring hatred for those she deems responsible, and whose been mentored by killers and assassins? If the show stayed true to its roots, we'd see Arya get her revenge, but at the cost of her humanity. Seeing her achieve her goal wouldn't be something we'd be eager to celebrate. But the show's strayed from its roots, and we're going to end up with Inigo Montoya.
Jul 18, 2017 3:13 AM
Zuben
DyneThat opening was weak. I always wondered how the faceless men pulled off voice modulation - did they just assume the identities of like age and gender people who were relatively unknown, so they could make up any voice they wanted? The answer is no: they are capable of perfectly mimicking a well known public figure so well that even a room full of their family members couldn't spot the fake. That was kind of bullshit.

This is profoundly stupid and also a very typical Dyne post. It has been clear, literally for years, that the Faceless Men are magic. As in, they employ magic as part of their mimicry, because what they do is not actually possible and it never has been from the first time the ability was portrayed. A very good analogy to your complaint here would be bitching about the ability of dragons to breath fire and how this is an unlikely thing to develop naturally from evolution. Actually, it would be more like just realizing that the dragons could breath fire after watching them do it for seasons and only then acting surprised and incredulous. Kind of bullshit? Kind of bullshit is not paying attention and then inflicting your stupid observations on the rest of the world on a public forum. Despite this being typical of your general posting, I still find myself taken aback by just how completely fucking half-baked your comprehension is. Honestly Dyne, shut the fuck up you utter shit bag.

It's been a while since Zuben's busted his nut around here. Somebody get Dyne a towel or two.
Jul 18, 2017 2:38 AM
Janson Jinnistan
PaquitoSomeone call Thomas Nagel. Janson Jinnistan knows what it's like to be a bat... shit crazy Glenn Beck fan. Seriously, it's bizarre to see just how warped your interpretation of all this is.

Yes, there's nothing insane about interpreting my defense of Maddow's warning other news outlets of forgeries being disseminated as equivalent to being a Glenn Beck fan. ?

Bahahahahaha. I'm going to enjoy slapping you out of your bubble.
Jul 17, 2017 7:18 PM
Janson Jinnistan

Well, it's adorable that Greenwald is getting chummy with the forgery troll, and thanks for verifying that the Buzzfeed copy was unique from the one Maddow received. ?Maybe Glenn can point out to his new source that he's a piece of garbage.

Before we side step the main issue however, I should reiterate that blaming Maddow's overzealousness on pursuing the Russia story by using the example of her refusing to bite scoop bait is still irrevocably dumb. ?A lot of Russian skeptics are trying to save face right now.

Someone call Thomas Nagel. Janson Jinnistan knows what it's like to be a bat... shit crazy Glenn Beck fan. Seriously, it's bizarre to see just how warped your interpretation of all this is.

Also, You keep using that word, skeptic. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Jul 17, 2017 6:49 PM
neumdaddy

The viewers are indeed supposed to be terrified of what Arya is capable of doing. So yeah, I think Arya laying waste to the Frey family is supposed to make us uneasy.

I don't think this is true. I read that scene the way Ivan did:


Ivan the TerribleYeah, I didn't get any sense they were going for moral ambivalence there. I got the sense they were going for a 'Fuck yeah!' moment where Arya gives the Freys what they've got coming to them. Notably, she went out of her way to spare Walder Frey's young wife precisely so we wouldn't feel any uncertainty about whether this was a good thing.

As I said earlier, D&D like those moments. To the extent they change Martin's intended story, it will be to add in more of those fist-pumping good-guys-give-bad-guys-what's-coming-to-them moments.



Jul 17, 2017 2:46 PM
Let's steal IC's Switch. For laughs.
Jul 17, 2017 2:15 PM
whathaveicreatedAnd we get the mixed emotions of cheering the vendetta while grappling with the fact that the sweet baby sister is genociding an entire family. At a time when we know Westros could use the Freys as ice cannon fodder.

A better version of the show would be grappling with this. This version of the show won't.
Jul 17, 2017 2:14 PM
Dyne
Paquito
Dyne
Paquito
Dyne
Paquito
Dyne?they are capable of perfectly mimicking a well known public figure so well that even a room full of their family members couldn't spot the fake.

This. When someone I know well acts weird for a few minutes, I scream, "FACELESS MAN", and stab them in the chest.

You jest sir, but there is no way Arya is sounding like a 70 year old pervert. Unless there is something that was totally glazed over in her training. Seems like that was just super convenient plot development that could have been handled in another way.

If this is a "super convenient plot development", it's one that occurred seasons ago. Specifically, the season Arya received that coin from the faceless man.

Arya receiving the coin was not only a vehicle to a major part of the story, it was essential to Arya's development. Her going to Bravos was hinted at early on, say by her favorite teacher Syrio Forel being from Bravos. She also spent a significant amount of time in the temple, going through personal trials and growing as a character. That's hardly the same thing as Arya awkwardly wrapping up an outstanding plot thread in about three minutes, because there are only fourteen episodes left and shit needs to happen.

I'm just talking the Faceless men being able to mimick the voices of people. That's been a thing all series long, so it's odd to complain about it now. I do agree that they're wrapping up loose threads in unsatisfying ways. I complained about that myself upthread.

Mimicking voices hasn't been a thing all season. Changing their voice to sound like someone else was used frequently by the faceless men; Assuming the identity of another person and convincing their family was not. Also, did the faceless men ever imitate someone of a different gender while talking? I honestly don't remember that. It's little things like that that take me out of the story.

If your gripe is about "convincing the targets family", my sarcastic post from earlier stands. Most in this world have no idea the Faceless men exist, so what do you assume Walder's family would do?

If your gripe is about imitating another gender, the faceless man that switched between Jaqen and the Waif sends his regards from last season.
Jul 17, 2017 4:07 AM
Dyne
Paquito
Dyne
Paquito
Dyne?they are capable of perfectly mimicking a well known public figure so well that even a room full of their family members couldn't spot the fake.

This. When someone I know well acts weird for a few minutes, I scream, "FACELESS MAN", and stab them in the chest.

You jest sir, but there is no way Arya is sounding like a 70 year old pervert. Unless there is something that was totally glazed over in her training. Seems like that was just super convenient plot development that could have been handled in another way.

If this is a "super convenient plot development", it's one that occurred seasons ago. Specifically, the season Arya received that coin from the faceless man.

Arya receiving the coin was not only a vehicle to a major part of the story, it was essential to Arya's development. Her going to Bravos was hinted at early on, say by her favorite teacher Syrio Forel being from Bravos. She also spent a significant amount of time in the temple, going through personal trials and growing as a character. That's hardly the same thing as Arya awkwardly wrapping up an outstanding plot thread in about three minutes, because there are only fourteen episodes left and shit needs to happen.

I'm just talking the Faceless men being able to mimick the voices of people. That's been a thing all series long, so it's odd to complain about it now. I do agree that they're wrapping up loose threads in unsatisfying ways. I complained about that myself upthread.
Jul 17, 2017 3:23 AM