Scorsese Hates RottenTomatoes.com

ej
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Wait, no. It was just Dyne's defunct Richard Grieco subforum.
Oct 12, 2017 2:38 PM
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ej
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I guess wirth kind of beat me to the larf. (Scroll up, ej.) Sorry.

You've won the battle, wirth, but . . .
Oct 12, 2017 2:39 PM
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Esoteric AllusionI think the (critic's) tomatometer is remarkably accurate in assessing the quality of a film. It's actually amazing that simply counting the number of positive and negative reviews can ballpark how good a film is so well. It's a wisdom of crowds effect. It's not perfect, of course. But with the occasional exception, the tomatometer estimates what'd I'd comparatively rate a film with decent accuracy. If you were to take all the 90-100% films, 80-90% films and so on and ask me to tier films by quality as well, the overlap would be substantial.

I understand that our opinions of films can change with time as we think about them or our experiences change. I understand that a film quality shouldn't and can't be reduced into a simple number or ranking. But Scorsese has opinions about relative film quality too - we all do - and scores and rankings are just short-hand for communicating that.

Hmm, I don't really agree. There are brilliant but divisive movies with low ratings due to poor consensus and very average movies with high ratings due to mere passing grades.
Oct 12, 2017 2:40 PM
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Facebook UserHe's right about this. The T-Meter or really any site that spits out a number attached to film criticism is gross. It simply isn't useful or proper to know x% of critics say when forced too that they like(or recommend) a certain film.

But it's okay for TV, right?
Oct 12, 2017 2:48 PM
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theVictorian
Esoteric AllusionI think the (critic's) tomatometer is remarkably accurate in assessing the quality of a film. It's actually amazing that simply counting the number of positive and negative reviews can ballpark how good a film is so well. It's a wisdom of crowds effect. It's not perfect, of course. But with the occasional exception, the tomatometer estimates what'd I'd comparatively rate a film with decent accuracy. If you were to take all the 90-100% films, 80-90% films and so on and ask me to tier films by quality as well, the overlap would be substantial.

I understand that our opinions of films can change with time as we think about them or our experiences change. I understand that a film quality shouldn't and can't be reduced into a simple number or ranking. But Scorsese has opinions about relative film quality too - we all do - and scores and rankings are just short-hand for communicating that.

Hmm, I don't really agree. There are brilliant but divisive movies with low ratings due to poor consensus and very average movies with high ratings due to mere passing grades.

I think those are the occasional exceptions I referenced. This isn't the common case.
Oct 12, 2017 2:55 PM
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Scorcese has his causation reversed. He thinks a review aggregator is somehow responsible for reducing the filmmaker to a content manufacturer and the viewer to an unadventurous consumer, when it's much more obviously the case that the review aggregator exists because movie viewers are, in general, unadventurous consumers looking for entertainment.
Oct 12, 2017 3:06 PM
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Paris the GoatScorcese has his causation reversed. He thinks a review aggregator is somehow responsible for reducing the filmmaker to a content manufacturer and the viewer to an unadventurous consumer, when it's much more obviously the case that the review aggregator exists because movie viewers are, in general, unadventurous consumers looking for entertainment.

Going to the movies is expensive and there are so many different ways you can fruitfully spend your time. I only go to see a movie f I am excited about people involved in making it or there is very positive criticism.

I'm less discriminating at home, but even then there's only so much time in the day and critical opinion is a useful filtering tool.
Oct 12, 2017 3:24 PM
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Esoteric Allusion
Paris the GoatScorcese has his causation reversed. He thinks a review aggregator is somehow responsible for reducing the filmmaker to a content manufacturer and the viewer to an unadventurous consumer, when it's much more obviously the case that the review aggregator exists because movie viewers are, in general, unadventurous consumers looking for entertainment.

Going to the movies is expensive and there are so many different ways you can fruitfully spend your time. I only go to see a movie f I am excited about people involved in making it or there is very positive criticism.

I'm less discriminating at home, but even then there's only so much time in the day and critical opinion is a useful filtering tool.

The tomatometer is great when I'm trying to find something to watch at home. If it sounds like something I'd enjoy and the tomatometer is high or quotes from reviews sound intriguing, I'll watch it.
Oct 12, 2017 3:26 PM
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To give an account of a current disparity, mother!, a very polarizing film, sits at 68%, and the "average rating" is equal at 6.8/10. This doesn't quite reflect the polarization, how critics go from "classic" to "the worst", but since I tend towards the former, I think the score is less than it deserves (but that's also because I'm not an unadventurous consumer).

American Made has a much more impressive score, 87%, but notably, it's average rating is barely higher, at 6.9/10. No doubt the film will be more appealing to popular audiences, but precisely because it is a film for unadventurous consumers. It's difficult to see how the film is 20 points better. Scorsese's own Silence is slightly less, at 84%, even though it has a much higher average rating of 7.6/10. Of course, Mary Jo Johnson hated it because she's a horrible person.

The Tomatoscore may be helpfully for a preliminary impression, but if one doesn't take the time to peruse the reviews and factor in the nuances of opinion, I don't find it very useful past a certain degree. I see films with 90%+ ratings that I hate, and at least one film with 0% (Terrorvision) that is a personal favorite.
Oct 12, 2017 3:55 PM
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Janson Jinnistan
Gigantopithecus"Wizard". Shut up about coons, asshole.

And yet, Wizard, who wouldn't stop talking about coons, was the only character that Bickle ever tried to confide in.

And that makes any white or latino person or black person choosing to confide with another white or latino or black person a racist...?

He thought Wizard was a fool, with this silliness. Plus no, he tried also to confide with Cybill Shepherd, to disastrous results. And confided with Jodie Foster, with vigilante results.



GigantopithecusNo bunk btw, I think I clearly demarcated such a Scorcese choice in my post that it was a needed role.

You said that "only you could play it", suggesting that this need for the character was more about Scorsese's need, and not about its place in the fulcrum of the story. ?It's bunk because the character was created by Paul Schrader (he felt it was needed), and Scorsese never wanted the role until there literally was no other option. ?Suggesting that Scorsese inserted the scene is only slightly less dumb than suggesting that Bickle should have killed him on the spot. ?Your entire read of the film is cracked.

I don't give one tiny fuck about any screenwriter who's ever lived or author or creator unless it translates on screen. And yes, "killed on the spot" was dumb at that point in the arc, I was wrong there. To Kill a Mockingbird? Why would I give a fuck about that Harper Lee novel? Asimov books, King books, Ludlum books, why give a shit about the books if just watching a movie? Why give a shit about the screenwriter's intentions also if the movie doesn't really relate to those intentions? Ever heard of Alan Moore who hates every adaption ever made? If Watchmen or other films are made and are decent or even different, why would I care about anything other than how they come across on the screen?

(the screenwriter felt it was needed!) God elevate the screenwriters apparently.?



GigantopithecusEven if Scorcese himself next says "Yes, I meant for Bickle to be a racist towards black people" I'd respond with "well you really didn't make that clear".

I don't believe the film is the problem here. ?Travis' latent racism has been cited enough, both by the filmmakers and analysts, that I'm almost surprised someone still refuses to acknowledge it.

My surprise is that even if true (and I dispute that), that it's some kind of 1% or more thing to focus on/about. That a take (not even main, not even secondary, tertiary, or thousandly down the line) one would get away from watching the film is "oh my Bickle was so racist!" is just mind-boggling.


GigantopithecusSo subtly racist I guess that the end-game is not killing any black people.


Except the guy in the store, of course.

You don't seem too keen on subtlety though, as you can't seem to see how they could show Travis' latent racism as a component of his paranoia and yet still not make this component his central motivation in the film. ?It must be very either/or for you.


Please tell me how Bickle shooting the black kid in the store indicates he hates blacks any more or less than Viggo Mortensen shooting the white people in the diner indicates his character in A History of Violence hates white people. Or The Rock in "Faster" hates black, white, and hispanic people. Please tell me where Bickle, or Mortensen, turned a sly smile at the camera, finally happy to shoot a black or white person. Again--if Scorcsse meant for Bickle to be an overt, or even subtle racist, this scene, of the character/actor, sure as hell doesn't add to that. SURE AS FUCK DOESN'T. If there were an alternate similar scene with him in a similar situation in his timeline of psychopathy where a white person holds up a bodego and Bickle has as many guns yet doesn't shoot, okay. Otherwise this wasn't about the character, it was more about spoon-feeding by the director (assuming he meant Bickle to be seen as a racist) In order to ramp up the subtle. Which didn't actually work in that scene. Bickle expresses no, zero pleasure, in killing this black kid. How subtle are you that you see subtlety in molecules rather than on screen?

I don't know how to separate quotes in this new brave shitty website age so I'll attempt to highlight my replies in bold.

And of course the attempt on Senator Palpatine was due to a) maybe pissed about that dismissal of him after the cab ride, possible a new sense that he despises his politics (Bickle is not terribly bright, frankly) and more b) a proxy to murder the woman (who he wouldn't ever literally murder) who'd spurned him (a white woman, and not even due to her being with a black man! But instead he tried to woo her yet too her to zygote porn) and Albert Brooks.

And final great scene, mohawk, faux poseur Bickle, unhinged but trying to do good not for himself now (he was a megalomaniac and shy and depressed etc., even though a quiet one, throughout) with his arsenal, and against an apparent a true person of Native American blood, "Sport". Harvey Keitel. Who had, like Palpatine, also mocked him earlier. So not just to free Iris but also due to butt-hurt and personal revenge. Which includes that $20 bill.

And the epilogue: Cut-out articles on the wall. About saving little white Iris, being thanked by her grandparents. Bickle then even picking up Cybill Shepherd and taking her to destination and just like "get-out" even after she just now is all google-eyes in the mirror and "let's go on a date actually". At him being publicly seen as a hero instead of accidentally being one. He wanted to die, had no bullets left, asked the cops to kill him. And again, if he'd met a black 12 year old black hooker or a Mongolian or Chilean, I don't think he would've not connected as much and used his last expected suicidal super-hero mindset to save them too. No indication. I mean other than white Jodie Foster being cast instead of a young non-white actress. But just casting white buddy hooker, or black stick-up man shot, is lazy if the character doesn't have much reaction to what race they happen to be.

The end though doesn't mean all he's been through has cured him of his psycopathy or PTSD or delusions of grandeur or any other mental illness. Or maybe it does. Thank god no "Taxi Driver II" was ever made.

And thank god few critics think Bickle's "racism" is any kind of important thing whatsoever.

Bickle is a naive child, who is also damaged from his 'Nam experience. And a possible sociopath/psychopath. He has little sense of purpose in life. He tries to "become a person, like other people" but that fails due to his sweet yet inappropriate attempt to have Cybill his g/f with the sperm and egg Swedish porn movie.

And...I could go on more, but "Travis Bickle is a racist and hates black people" is like the most vacant and vacuous and irrelevant thing to focus on via this film. It's just utterly bizarre, whether or not subtle hints or whatever. Has zero to do with the character as presented and acted on screen. Zero to do with some screenwriter's intentions, the character as presented, New York as presented... What a long strange Taxi Driver criticism trip this has been. Not sure whether to toss hands in air or roll-eyes or sigh.

Next let's argue how subtly racist Charles Foster Kane and George Bailey and Ellen Ripley were. The signs were everywhere, to those in the know dissecting!
Oct 13, 2017 7:37 AM
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Is this a demonstration?
Oct 13, 2017 9:53 AM
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Janson JinnistanIs this a demonstration?


Type who you are asking that of. If me:

Of whether Bickle being a subtle racist [which I continue to not simply accept as presented in the film; although certainly he and most white people in the '70s and '10s are racist] is in any way whatsoever important to the character or any kind of theme? Okay, guess I am "demonstrating" that. And again, if precious screenwriter and precious director and precious actor wanted that to come across, they did a shitty job of it.

And what do you mean by "demonstration"?? Most American "demonstrations" seem to be historically via Hispanic or black Americans or women and other disadvantaged-by-the-state people. Are you subtly claiming those such are invalid? Who knows, when subtlety can be stretched to the Moon. Even to dissect those three words you wrote as meaningful, racism-wise, which I did and which is foolish as fuck. An example of vast over-reach. And of using tentacles to draw in themes or intentions from what is not that which is presented, but from other sources.

Goya's "Saturn Devouring his Son" didn't need a bibliography of Goya, or local temporal political whatever, or why he used the paints he did, etc. as meta-BS. Take the painting as you will, take the film as you will. Don't look at something like that or "Guernica" or Plath's "Lady Lazarus" then only having an opinion after reading a 20,000 word placard beside it and/or eight years and a PhD in Spanish history. All art should stand on its own. Little flies around art buzzing about "intention" and "context" can take that shit to a History forum. Not an art forum.

Forget Scorsese, maybe Noam Chomsky at this point should chime in since words mean things. Or Glen Ford. Or Spike Lee. Not saying Taxi Driver is a perfect-we-now-are-durrr 2017-take movie. Few are. Short Round even in Indy Jones, Asians in everything basically to this day; mamies and such for decades. Bruce Lee movies regarding the Japanese. The utterly terrible and laughable Oscar-winning Crash".

Hell, even Singleton's Training Day kind of badly characterizes Latinos if one would want to assign a motive of such, which would be stupid. It was just a part of the movie. The director wasn't obligated to show kind Latinos as some kind of moral see-saw weight. Film-makers should be free to comment, but not burdened to include every and all nuances.

Neither Singleton nor Hawke's nor Denzel's characters are racist against Latinos. Or maybe you'd argue with me on that too.

And Native Americans to this day can't just be native (hey, I grew up in Detroit, hey I grew up on a reservation...no more things after that...), they have to display spiritual white mythology "code-talkers" or Val Kilmer's spiritual friends [actually a fairly respectful movie] or Dancing With Wolves "friendly barbarism/savage wisdom", etc. etc. etc. When was the last film you saw that featured a Native American character where it was made known he/she was a Native American yet that's just all the note was--no further.

Instead of: "Oh, a Native American, so our films HAS to refer to his/her spirituality, olden times wisdom, those Natives. Look, that character is a Native! Must be spiritual and wise and went on a vision quest! Can't just be a normal human that just happens to be a Native American". The Magical Negro seems akin to the Spiritual Injun.

Even the recent progressive and welcome Wonder Woman, shattering box office records for a woman lead and woman director, plays on that trope. No Native American can appear in a movie unless wearing tribal beads, turquoise, having an animal spirit, being wise beyond what the white man can understand, etc.

Sorry if I went on a tangent. But christ. Taxi Driver came out 40 years ago and we're arguing about tiny little points about his character re: racism. While 40 years later, NOW, Asian and Native American characters/actors are still stereotyped. That tangent isn't to dismiss valid points against my interpretation of the character or movie btw. I may be ignorant.
Oct 14, 2017 3:33 AM
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jesus fucking christ
Oct 14, 2017 3:35 AM
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Bigwigjesus fucking christ

Maybe this thread should be moved to GD. Neither "Is this a demonstration" nor "jesus fucking christ" is much of a film criticism. Seems not the best forum for this, with these canards and non sequiturs.
Oct 14, 2017 4:26 AM
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Gigantopithecus
Bigwigjesus fucking christ

Maybe this thread should be moved to GD.

It's the only way to make it dumber.
Oct 14, 2017 4:33 AM
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Bigwig
Gigantopithecus
Bigwigjesus fucking christ

Maybe this thread should be moved to GD.


It's the only way to make it dumber.


I mean, this original forum was designed as film criticism. I've spent a lot of time in GD. Being my typical asshole/pompous nature sure, but also learning things from more insightful posters. "Dumb"? Well not really. And especially--not applicable. Mr. Sit on Throne.

How to call dumber? Have you ever even delved there? Where your opinions might be challenged??
"Dumber" = "daring to enter a forum where I might be out-argued or look the fool."

Keep up your bravery, Bigwig. Your comfortable cocoon. (and no, your Kinski hat avatar doesn't count as you being worldly and able to talk one jack-fucking shit about any aspect of film. No more than if I posted with rosebud in a snow globe on my head. Or a spinning top that omg might stop spinning what is reality).

Put up or shut up, coward. Go to GD and claim something or aver or put forth a proposition, and not as objective since critiques of art isn't, since art aren't science...

And sorry for late edit. These forums now suck ass and are utterly chaotic. Seriously though, get over yourself. Fucking christ indeed. Baby. Not even of Mary and Joseph so not that special. The air is just thick with your insecurity. Tastes like tar.
Oct 14, 2017 4:51 AM
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jesus fucking christ
Oct 14, 2017 4:54 AM
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Bigwigjesus fucking christ

Herzog is a fraud. "Documentary" about a grizzly person and then dead and g/f dead but this "documentary" doesn't include such footage/sounds of them being killed. Not surprising you'd align your avatar with such a fraud.

Oh, maybe we should go to GD where you could talk all Herzog and defend something like this shitty-ass "documentary" of his and his also shitty-ass movies even if featuring your beloved Klaus Kinski, who was also kind of a piece of shit.

Pathetic baby. MEWWWWWW avatar. Look at me. Proto-ironic. With your avatar of Roman Polanski and Bill Cosby...oh sorry you chose something different...

Keep on keeping on with your ignorance and pathetic avatar which you know zero about. Movies or heroes or anything. What an ignorant cunt. Unless of course your heroes are sexual predators who rape their own little girls, and shitty-ass "documentarians" who burns the tapes and never reveals, or something.
Oct 14, 2017 6:32 AM
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hang in there Gigantor ya big fat fucken maniac
Oct 14, 2017 6:52 AM
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Sprague Dawleyhang in there Gigantor ya big fat fucken maniac


Thanks. We fed each other grapes on that failed forum of yours. Lived as kings and queens in that light time. A more gentle time. We are like meercats.

Fuck meercats though.. And penguins. Jesus, some of the stupidest birds. I see a nice nature show then some 90% likely British voice "...and the penguins" and then pans to waddling idiot penguins for the next 20 minutes, and I roll-eyes. Change channel. Stupid penguins. We get it. You're cold. Cry me a river. And you're already covered of every nature show ever spending time focusing on you. No reason to devote any more of a nature show to your sorry stupid asses than to finches or crows or scrub jays or geese or ducks. Penguins disgust me.

And I have a sense of bird intelligence by ways I shall not mention. Stupidest birds: 1. Pigeons. 2. Penguins. Both species are all DURRRRR. Stupid fucks.

And thanks Janson Jinnistan despite any disagreement I had with you, or how bull-headed I've been. My lament isn't here about your particular dismissal here, which sure, may be tainted by the surrounding tenor of ignorance. Or not.

And yeah, should've been transferred to GD real quick, if that still exists. So as to avoid moronic posts from moronic OT posters with rape avatars and three word horseshit and who are a'scurred.
Oct 14, 2017 9:26 AM
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