I'm starting to loathe the actions of hate-filled right wing fascists.

Original Poster
Joined: Jun 2005
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What the hell, Charlottesville?

Alleged picture of a man on a stroll there today...



Vehicular assault.


Aug 12, 2017 11:34 PM
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this shit is always hard for me to grapple with. I don't like it when people use terrorists to judge all Muslims. I don't like it when people use rioters to judge all BLM members. I don't like it when people use drug dealers/rapists to judge all immigrants (and so forth). I don't want to use the Charlottesville protestors to judge all Trump supporters. but I have to concede that Trump himself has espoused many authoritarian/nationalist/bigoted sentiments that if not accepted, were at least tolerated by everyone who voted for him (or, I assume, they wouldn't have voted for him). and that maybe not enough was done to prevent these views from shifting the Overton window (assuming that the majority of the Trump coalition find these views reprehensible). there's a lot more I could say but I don't know how much of it will mirror the gripes about the "permissive society" I've been hearing from conservatives all my life, gripes that cast too wide a net in looking for the perpetrators. unless we really do need to cast that net.

anyway, we better start having more national dialogues about white-anger-politics before Trump's supporters realize he is leaving office, impeachment or otherwise. if they're this angry now, well....
Aug 12, 2017 11:54 PM
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"starting"
Aug 13, 2017 3:19 AM
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we all gotta start somewhere.
Aug 13, 2017 3:48 AM
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"Hey, these racists? Hmm. A little loathsome? I don't know."
Aug 13, 2017 3:51 AM
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Jut an inkling, stop me if I get out of hand.

It....seems...that maybe that book is more than the cover. Makes you think.
Aug 13, 2017 3:54 AM
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Oxnard Montalvothis shit is always hard for me to grapple with. I don't like it when people use terrorists to judge all Muslims. I don't like it when people use rioters to judge all BLM members. I don't like it when people use drug dealers/rapists to judge all immigrants (and so forth). I don't want to use the Charlottesville protestors to judge all Trump supporters. but I have to concede that Trump himself has espoused many authoritarian/nationalist/bigoted sentiments that if not accepted, were at least tolerated by everyone who voted for him (or, I assume, they wouldn't have voted for him). and that maybe not enough was done to prevent these views from shifting the Overton window (assuming that the majority of the Trump coalition find these views reprehensible). there's a lot more I could say but I don't know how much of it will mirror the gripes about the "permissive society" I've been hearing from conservatives all my life, gripes that cast too wide a net in looking for the perpetrators. unless we really do need to cast that net.

anyway, we better start having more national dialogues about white-anger-politics before Trump's supporters realize he is leaving office, impeachment or otherwise. if they're this angry now, well....

I think it is wise not to rush to dismiss all Trump supporters to the basket of deplorables. The greatest test of our moral principles and general reasons is when they apply to cases we detest. There is a continuum of Trump support. At the far end are these people. At the other end are people who didn't even like Trump but felt the alternative was worse. And there is always a noisy fringe that gets more attention than it deserves, driving narratives, and inviting generalizations. Squeaky wheels that are interesting for being squeaky.

That stated, I think leftists and rightists should take a hard look at their extremists as they represent an endpoint, something implicit, latent, invited, or at least possible, within their own ideologies. They're a cautionary tale - go too far and you could become this. They're also a prediction of things to come - to the extent that these movements are progressive, extremists hint at what we're progressing toward. Consequently, while we should properly resist hasty generalizations, we can rightly look at these outliers are being troubling cases which the group, in some ways, must own. Otherwise, we're all off to No True Scotsman-ville and no one is ever responsible for what any particular members of a group ever do.

Trump conservatives should agonize over these cases. BLM should agonize over violence in their group. And so should ANTIFA, and so on.

Aug 13, 2017 10:08 AM
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Well you're in luck because there's already about 500 threads with this subject in the last year here, and this isn't even where they belong.
Aug 13, 2017 10:27 AM
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NotReallyYARNAutism Guy
Oxnard Montalvothis shit is always hard for me to grapple with. I don't like it when people use terrorists to judge all Muslims. I don't like it when people use rioters to judge all BLM members. I don't like it when people use drug dealers/rapists to judge all immigrants (and so forth). I don't want to use the Charlottesville protestors to judge all Trump supporters. but I have to concede that Trump himself has espoused many authoritarian/nationalist/bigoted sentiments that if not accepted, were at least tolerated by everyone who voted for him (or, I assume, they wouldn't have voted for him). and that maybe not enough was done to prevent these views from shifting the Overton window (assuming that the majority of the Trump coalition find these views reprehensible). there's a lot more I could say but I don't know how much of it will mirror the gripes about the "permissive society" I've been hearing from conservatives all my life, gripes that cast too wide a net in looking for the perpetrators. unless we really do need to cast that net.

anyway, we better start having more national dialogues about white-anger-politics before Trump's supporters realize he is leaving office, impeachment or otherwise. if they're this angry now, well....

I think it is wise not to rush to dismiss all Trump supporters to the basket of deplorables. The greatest test of our moral principles and general reasons is when they apply to cases we detest. There is a continuum of Trump support. At the far end are these people. At the other end are people who didn't even like Trump but felt the alternative was worse. And there is always a noisy fringe that gets more attention than it deserves, driving narratives, and inviting generalizations. Squeaky wheels that are interesting for being squeaky.

That stated, I think leftists and rightists should take a hard look at their extremists as they represent an endpoint, something implicit, latent, invited, or at least possible, within their own ideologies. They're a cautionary tale - go too far and you could become this. They're also a prediction of things to come - to the extent that these movements are progressive, extremists hint at what we're progressing toward. Consequently, while we should properly resist hasty generalizations, we can rightly look at these outliers are being troubling cases which the group, in some ways, must own. Otherwise, we're all off to No True Scotsman-ville and no one is ever responsible for what any particular members of a group ever do.

Trump conservatives should agonize over these cases. BLM should agonize over violence in their group. And so should ANTIFA, and so on.


Canadian code bill C-16 as an example: Saying hateful stuff is extreme but actually signing into law compelled speech isn't? People are never going to 'take responsibility' for the actions of the crazies on 'their side' when they believe that the other side not only has it's fair share of crazies but also stands to redefine an ideology they hold dear (eg. the first amendment). If you guys keep thinking that anyone gives a shit about the actions of 'these crazies vs those crazies' you're going to be as disappointed in the next election as you were with the previous one.

Things only stay calm when people mind their own business and don't try to force their feelings onto everyone else. The human nature to compete is now all-encompassingly merged with social media. 'It's now my business to force you to do what we want you to do'. There is no fix to this problem. There's no going back.
Aug 13, 2017 10:41 AM
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free speech=free nazis
Aug 13, 2017 3:47 PM
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Sorcerer Supreme Namelessfree speech=free nazis

It's freedom of assembly.
Aug 13, 2017 3:56 PM
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Aug 13, 2017 4:09 PM
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ergill sanchez
Sorcerer Supreme Namelessfree speech=free nazis

It's freedom of assembly.

What's watering these weeds of assembly, exactly?
Aug 13, 2017 4:26 PM
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Figure your speech shit out. Seriously. I'm not going to have this argument anymore, there's a reason why this shit doesn't happen in Canada. Figure it the fuck out.
Aug 13, 2017 4:27 PM
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.
Aug 13, 2017 4:27 PM
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Aug 13, 2017 4:27 PM
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Janson Jinnistan"starting"

I have hard time believing these people actually exist. Hearing about racists and fascists is very much like hearing about Bigfoot and aliens. There are plenty of allegations, but when you look into it, it's usually a case of

1. You disagree with me, so you're racist/fascist/whatever.

2. You're conservative, so you're racist/fascist/whatever.

3. You're white, so you're racist/fascist/whatever.

Vanishingly few people who are accused of racism would ever self-avow racist beliefs. And we need to be very careful about how we treat these accusations. If the person being accused does not self-avow racism, that person deserves the benefit of the doubt as to what they stand for if for no other reason than empirical investigation will reveal that at least 9 out 10 accusations of racism/fascism turn out to be nothing more than strategic allegations and/or emotional outbursts.

However, when you see people sporting swastikas, using the word "Heil", and quoting Hitler glowingly, you can safely say "racist" and "fascist." The KKK has basically been a joke for many decades, but we are starting to see racism on the rise. I am increasingly running into odd people with odd beliefs (i.e., racist AF) on the interwebs. It preceded Trump, but there is no denying the association with Trump's election. I do not believe for a moment that the majority of Trump supporters would simply throw a Nazi salute, but there is an uncomfortable association here...

In short, I don't take my cues from itchy leftists, who see racism in their soup. However, I am starting to see undeniable signs that this is a real thing. The question is, "How many are there?" And I am not sure I want to know the answer.

Aug 13, 2017 4:40 PM
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NotReallyYARNAutism GuyIn short, I don't take my cues from itchy leftists, who see racism in their soup. However, I am starting to see undeniable signs that this is a real thing.


Glad to see you are finally catching up after all of these fucking years. Good job, Yarn! Slow and steady wins the race war
Aug 13, 2017 5:45 PM
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Sorcerer Supreme Namelessthere's a reason why this shit doesn't happen in Canada.

Aug 13, 2017 5:47 PM
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Janson Jinnistan
Sorcerer Supreme Namelessthere's a reason why this shit doesn't happen in Canada.


Oh, you mean the huge fucking joke??

Tremble!
Aug 13, 2017 5:55 PM
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