Game of Thrones leaks

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Leave now! Leaaaaaaaaaaaave.
Aug 11, 2017 9:25 PM
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I SAID GET OUT OF THIS THREAD.
Aug 11, 2017 9:27 PM
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O
K


































Aug 11, 2017 9:28 PM
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Motherfucking white walker dragons.
Aug 11, 2017 9:30 PM
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Can anyone just hop on a motherfucking dragon? I mean except for Snow apparently. GET IT TOGETHER BRO.

The dragon's death was well done and Dany's devastation in that moment got to me.

Tormund's comment about gingers is very true, btw.
Aug 16, 2017 10:39 AM
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It was really good.
Aug 16, 2017 10:40 AM
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I'm going to have to download a different copy, because that episode didn't have about 10 minutes of what I was led to believe it had.
Aug 16, 2017 6:01 PM
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I broke down and watched. It mostly pretty amazing, but with some caveats.?

The good:

Dany's arrival to the battle and inital flight of immolation over the wights was spectacular. As a moment, it might be my favorite of the series to date. Throughout the series, where she lets loose with the dragons now numbers probably 3 of my 5 favorite scenes in the show, but this one was more than just awesome, it was, to me at least, really emotional. It is so iconic, and one the reader/viewer anticipates from very, very early on. I just couldn't believe it was happening.

Relatedly, the dragon's death (Viserion?) was gut-wrenching. I don't actually think Emilia Clarke was up to snuff in her reaction here, but more on that below. The actual death was just terrible, though, and treated with the real weight it deserved. Are we really to buy the Night King (oh my god, I hate even typing that since the people on the show have no reason to know to call him that) can throw harder than a ballista? I guess? Kind of silly, but whatever, it was awesome and horrible.

The last stand of the Magnificent 7 was actually done pretty well, throughout. I liked Thoros' quiet passing, and my ass was genuinely clenched during Tormund's anguished shrieking when it definitely looked like he was a goner. I kind of thought it was silly that Gendry was our marathon runner here, considering how he had been built up as a "fighter," but it kind of works because of that, too.

The bad:

Look, everything good that happened here was the result of everything bad about last episode. It wouldn't have been that hard to fix. Even if the plan had been to catch a wight to convince Dany, rather than Cersei, that would have made some kind of sense, because it would explain why Dany didn't just fly up there in the first place. The capture-the-wight-for-Cersei plan is the single stupidest thing the show has ever done, and it really is just--it seems--to set up all the awesome stuff here. It's good enough that it makes swallowing it all easier, but come on, we should resent it, too.

I don't think Emilia Clarke's reaction upon seeing her dragon die was all that emotive. Tormund's face here was the waaaay better reaction shot. She was pretty good later, though, on the ship. But worse, when she's staring out over Eastwatch, you reasonably think, "Oh, she's thinking about Viserion." And then up rides Jon, and I'm like, "Wait, whaaat?" Jon shouldn't have even been on her mind at that point! And that she reacts more strongly to Jon's return than her child's death (at least initially) is ridonkulous.

Also bad (maybe?): Benjen. Come on. A Benjen/Jon reunion should have been amazing! It's Uncle Benjen! But he's here and then Jon's gone and then he's gone. Not even a moment to process. On the other hand, part of me kind of likes this, because it's sort of more realistic. Jon and Benjen didn't really have time for a catch-up. It really would be this thing that happened in a flash leaving Jon to always wonder where Benjen had come from and what he had been doing all those years. Anyway, it both felt rushed and kind of a cool trope-undermine at the same time.

The Sansa/Arya stuff was mostly well-written and acted, but I honestly didn't get what was happening half the time. Why did Sansa send Brienne away exactly? Would Arya really be so unsympathetic to Sansa's plight as a captive of the Lannisters? I kept waiting for this to become something, and instead it just sort of all happened and sat there.

---

Anyway, Ice Dragon was one of those things that I think became a fan theory later on that is kind of fun to see. Initially I always thought we'd have Bran warg into a dragon, but as the story has developed it's become more difficult to see how that was going to happen, and more obvious ice dragon was in the mix. This gives me a pretty good idea of how the season will end, I think--another thing we've been waiting for forever. I have a feeling most of what we saw in this episode will be very very different in the books, but that's cool. We got this, and it was mostly neat and amazing.
Aug 16, 2017 7:29 PM
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I'm 100% sure Bran's vision of a dragon over king's landing will be Viserion. That's just too good to pass up.
Aug 16, 2017 10:32 PM
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The Good:

- The banter between the brotherhood et al. on the trek north was pretty solidly written. These are generally all characters the audience loves, so seeing them interact in a humorous, organic manner was great.

- The cringey Sansa/Arya dynamic from last episode continues to mostly fall flat, although the eeriness of Arya's dialog at the end of the episode sort of makes it worthwhile. The girl is severely damaged.

- The wight polar bear attack was fun to watch and wonderfully brutal.

- The spectacle of the dragon attack was impressive, although less so than the Drogon/Dothraki massacre several episodes ago.

- I enjoy the lore tidbit that the wights that a walker turns are destroyed when the walker is destroyed. It maybe feels a little convenient in setting up the endgame, but I think it works. And hey, at least the showrunners are capable of foreshadowing more than an episode into the future again.

- The death of Viserion was indeed viscerally upsetting to watch, but more on that below.


The Bad:

- They were hunting wights and didn't bring any sources of fire (other than Beric's blood)? No arrows to light on fire, not even any torches? It's extremely difficult to suspend my disbelief when these people are so incredibly stupid.

- The Wall is only 12 hours away from Dragonstone now. They sent a raven to Dany and she arrived in what seemed to be about a day. There were ways they easily could've explained why Dany might have been near Jon & Co. that didn't necessitate sending her a raven and her traveling all that way north, so in the end this teleportation, like so much of this season, feels like the result of lazy plotting.

- The Night's King's recasting continues to be unfortunate, and his ballista arm was really dumb. He's become a big, dumb, overpowered supervillain rather than the chilling, highly-intelligent being he seemed to be in 'Hardhome.'

- The wight dragon is a really, really fucking stupid idea. Wights burn at the drop of a hat (I think there's a quote in the novels saying that they burn as though covered in lamp oil), and you now have a HUGE target that even a single flaming arrow could destroy. A barrage of flaming arrows could presumably take it out in under a minute. Is an ice dragon "cool" in theory? Sure, but it's a terrible military asset.

- Rather than have the two remaining dragons hurriedly fly off before the Night's King could skewer them, not one goddamned person said, "Hey Dany! Everyone JUST talked about this while we were waiting for hours on this island. Kill that stupid fuck over there and this is all over!" The frankly bizarre decision to bring the Night's King into close proximity of the dragons and NOT have them even attempt to melt him renders everything the white walkers do subsequent to this problematic. In effect, the heroes do inexplicably stupid things that have catastrophic consequences for thousands of innocents simply because the writers didn't think any of it through. The Night's King didn't add anything to the scene and he clearly should've just been absent until the end sequence. Viserion should've been killed through other means.

- By FAR the biggest issue: There is an overwhelming failure here to engage the viewer with a logical, well-conceived explanation for why the heroes are placing themselves in immense danger and are inviting on themselves all of the horrors we witness in this episode. The entire reason why they were north of the Wall, to capture a wight to show to crazy-ass Cersei, feels so flimsy that it ultimately renders everything that occurs here rather irritating and much less effective than it should've been. Everything the heroes do that succeeds feels unsatisfying because they shouldn't be undertaking this incredibly stupid quest to begin with, and similarly every win the villains score (especially the death of Viserion) is rendered cheap and frustrating. Jon even addresses this at the end of the episode, but the writers ultimately just handwave it away. The inability of the show runners to construct with any competency their own unique plots, which has lead to some pretty significant dips in quality throughout the last three seasons, has inevitably lead us to this asinine quest and what is arguably (hopefully?) the show's nadir. As a viewer who had become deeply invested in the characters and narrative throughout the first four seasons, and who felt that just about every gut punch in the first five seasons (from the execution of Ned to the Red Wedding and the burning of Shireen) was internally consistent and earned, this episode was particularly frustrating to watch and has convinced me to finally just disengage emotionally and intellectually from a show that used to be really excellent.

- Based on leaks from the season finale, the Night's King uses Viserion to take down the Wall in the finale. The Wall falling is a huge moment that has seemed like an inevitability since the first novel was released in 1996, so its destruction is a huuuge deal 21 years in the making. This will undoubtedly be another epic SFX scene that will leave many viewers giddy, but given that the Night's King's possession of Viserion feels largely unearned and the result of shit writing, it's almost sure feel pretty underwhelming and poorly-conceived. Many fan theories on Reddit from the past several seasons have been much better in comparison.

Ultimately, this was an episode with a couple of great 'Holy shit!' moments that is built almost entirely on hollow ground, and subsequently I doubt it will be remembered fondly after the adrenaline has worn off and people begin to re-watch it. I'd give it, like, a C-/D+, but that score is in part the byproduct of the direction of the show in general.
Aug 16, 2017 11:57 PM
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Fire kills everything, though, so asking why the white walkers want something with the capability to shoot fire is a weird question. It's because they plan on pointing it at other people. Why doesn't the furnace in Viserion's mouth ignite him immediately? Why doesn't didn't it do so when he was alive? The point is that wights can't be killed in a lot of ways, just those two. I think you're extremely harsh on this episode.
Aug 17, 2017 12:20 AM
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Even if wights are tinder boxes, I don't think the night King cares if he loses some incinerating humans, who are watery tinder boxes.
Aug 17, 2017 12:22 AM
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MeowFire kills everything, though, so asking why the white walkers want something with the capability to shoot fire is a weird question. It's because they plan on pointing it at other people. Why doesn't the furnace in Viserion's mouth ignite him immediately? Why doesn't didn't it do so when he was alive? The point is that wights can't be killed in a lot of ways, just those two. I think you're extremely harsh on this episode.


Well, here's my logic regarding the so-called 'ice dragon.'

1. It's been well-established that the two transformative processes available to white walkers is a) turning living human infants into other white walkers, and b) raising dead animals/people as wights. Both result in bright blue eyes. (There may be other conversions they're capable of performing, but if they're using a new one on Viserion then it should've been hinted at by this point, otherwise it feels like there are no internally-consistent rules to the show's universe. So let's stick with the aforementioned two options.)

2. Viserion was shot through the neck with the ice javelin and then crashed into the lake. He died either by the javelin shot or by drowning, and was clearly dead when dredged from the lake. The Night's King uses some magic on the dead body and its eyes open and are bright blue. Our best guess is that it's now a wight, because 'dead thing' + white walker magic = wight.

3. Although fire does destroy everything, maybe even dragons if it's intense enough, all beings specifically take on a dramatic and supernatural susceptibility to fire when raised as wights. When they're so much as grazed by fire they begin to burn uncontrollably and are quickly destroyed. This is well-established both in the novels and on the show, and it happened repeatedly in this very episode. In fact, fire is the only way to really kill them other than to let them rot away, at least in the novels.

4. We have no evidence that the white walkers can grant a protection from fire to any of their minions, or else they'd be able to protect their wights.

5. We don't know that Viserion will have a fiery breath attack after he's raised. If he does, as a wight, he should probably burn immediately upon using it. There's no precedence for an ice attack and, because of that and how wights seem to function, that would strike me as pretty silly, but at least it wouldn't burn itself the fuck up immediately.

6. Dragons are, like, really big, and easily hit with arrows. The arrows may not pierce their flesh, but being grazed by a flame arrow should be enough to set a wight on fire, based on what we've seen thus far.

The next appearance of Viserion could totally sell us on the hypothetical that wight dragons are special and are immune to fire, but it's antithetical to how wights function and I don't have a lot of confidence that the showrunners won't just handwave that issue away. Because they're, you know, the GoT showrunners, and they're no longer getting any course correction from GRRM.
Aug 17, 2017 12:56 AM
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And to be clear, I find the idea of a wight dragon breathing fire on a bunch of shit or not being killed immediately by a flammable arrow to be way less problematic than most of the poorly-conceived plot and character choices I've mentioned. There's a certain freedom to including magic in your narrative, in that 'a wizard did it' kind of way. But I'd still prefer that a show that's been lauded as serious and internally-consistent remain that way, and think that this particular choice has the potential to be a furtherance of the tendencies on the part of the showrunners that have drawn a decent amount of criticism since the show outpaced the novels.
Aug 17, 2017 1:08 AM
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Shinjuku
MeowFire kills everything, though, so asking why the white walkers want something with the capability to shoot fire is a weird question. It's because they plan on pointing it at other people. Why doesn't the furnace in Viserion's mouth ignite him immediately? Why doesn't didn't it do so when he was alive? The point is that wights can't be killed in a lot of ways, just those two. I think you're extremely harsh on this episode.


Well, here's my logic regarding the so-called 'ice dragon.'

1. It's been well-established that the two transformative processes available to white walkers is a) turning living human infants into other white walkers, and b) raising dead animals/people as wights. Both result in bright blue eyes. (There may be other conversions they're capable of performing, but if they're using a new one on Viserion then it should've been hinted at by this point, otherwise it feels like there are no internally-consistent rules to the show's universe. So let's stick with the aforementioned two options.)

2. Viserion was shot through the neck with the ice javelin and then crashed into the lake. He died either by the javelin shot or by drowning, and was clearly dead when dredged from the lake. The Night's King uses some magic on the dead body and its eyes open and are bright blue. Our best guess is that it's now a wight, because 'dead thing' + white walker magic = wight.

3. Although fire does destroy everything, maybe even dragons if it's intense enough, all beings specifically take on a dramatic and supernatural susceptibility to fire when raised as wights. When they're so much as grazed by fire they begin to burn uncontrollably and are quickly destroyed. This is well-established both in the novels and on the show, and it happened repeatedly in this very episode. In fact, fire is the only way to really kill them other than to let them rot away, at least in the novels.

4. We have no evidence that the white walkers can grant a protection from fire to any of their minions, or else they'd be able to protect their wights.

5. We don't know that Viserion will have a fiery breath attack after he's raised. If he does, as a wight, he should probably burn immediately upon using it. There's no precedence for an ice attack and, because of that and how wights seem to function, that would strike me as pretty silly, but at least it wouldn't burn itself the fuck up immediately.

6. Dragons are, like, really big, and easily hit with arrows. The arrows may not pierce their flesh, but being grazed by a flame arrow should be enough to set a wight on fire, based on what we've seen thus far.

The next appearance of Viserion could totally sell us on the hypothetical that wight dragons are special and are immune to fire, but it's antithetical to how wights function and I don't have a lot of confidence that the showrunners won't just handwave that issue away. Because they're, you know, the GoT showrunners, and they're no longer getting any course correction from GRRM.

https://youtu.be/pYrRqMHQY7o
Aug 17, 2017 1:17 AM
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We've seen fire have no effect on the White Walkers. They just dispel it and walk through it. There was a theory that dragonfire might have a different effect than regular fire--since, you know, dragonglass can kill them--but that was disproved this episode. So complaining that they didn't just burn the White Walkers is completely misplaced.
Aug 17, 2017 2:24 AM
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Shinjuku
MeowFire kills everything, though, so asking why the white walkers want something with the capability to shoot fire is a weird question. It's because they plan on pointing it at other people. Why doesn't the furnace in Viserion's mouth ignite him immediately? Why doesn't didn't it do so when he was alive? The point is that wights can't be killed in a lot of ways, just those two. I think you're extremely harsh on this episode.

but given that the Night's King's possession of Viserion feels largely unearned and the result of shit writing, it's almost sure feel pretty underwhelming

Well, here's my logic regarding the so-called 'ice dragon.'

1. It's been well-established that the two transformative processes available to white walkers is a) turning living human infants into other white walkers,?

It's almost sure feel pretty underwhelming? One line into your next post and you demonstrate an inability to use plurals? I don't believe you have a claim to decry anyone for "shit writing".
Aug 17, 2017 2:53 AM
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A wight dragon is not a dragon and let the damn show deal with this. Also, this is not the thing to care about on a tv show. This is not a collection of detailed books sprawling thousands of pages. You will not get an aside with a maester' thoughts on the physiology of a god damn undead dragon.
Aug 17, 2017 4:22 AM
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NimChimpsky
The Sansa/Arya stuff was mostly well-written and acted, but I honestly didn't get what was happening half the time. Why did Sansa send Brienne away exactly? Would Arya really be so unsympathetic to Sansa's plight as a captive of the Lannisters? I kept waiting for this to become something, and instead it just sort of all happened and sat there.

I found it to be coherent. I actually thought the Sansa/Arya subplot was excellent this episode, which makes the bad set up in the previous one all the more annoying. It would only take a minor rewrite to fix the whole thing. The characterization of Arya in this one was right on the money.

I don't like deus ex machina moments in the show, and uncle Benjen showing up at just the perfect moment isn't a good look, but I can at least tell myself he's been biding his time hanging around the Walkers. When it came to Jon getting to see him for one brief moment and off he goes, I liked that a great deal.

The banter among the fellowship of the wight was fun. The action pieces were well done. If the whole plot explaining what they are doing and why wasn't obnoxiously stupid, it would've been solid stuff.

Dany + Jon is now quite obviously happening, and I continue to find it strange that this isn't played with any sense of unease at all.
Aug 17, 2017 4:35 AM
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Thinking how this could be drastically improved with some rewrites, it's unfortunate that the show cannot bring into the fold few top notch fantasy writers to contribute a little writing and consulting work to tighten it up. They've got to have the resources to try and recruit at this point. Patrick Rothfuss is taking his sweet ass time with book 3 in the Kingkiller Chronicles, so he might have some time on his hands. Give him a giant bag of money to do a little script consultation.
Aug 17, 2017 4:46 AM
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