Goodbye, Turkey.

Original Poster
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Seems like someone should create a thread for it.
Apr 16, 2017 8:48 PM
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Apr 16, 2017 9:41 PM
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Wonder how many points on the Democracy Index Turkey lost today?
Apr 17, 2017 1:31 AM
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Lord ShangWonder how many points on the Democracy Index Turkey lost today?

I suspect a lot.

The most disturbing trend about all of these right-trending political movements across the democratic world isn't necessarily the trend itself, but that it is happening in a period where we have unprecedented wealth, general freedom, safety, health, and political rights as an aggregate worldwide. It almost seems like a blueprint for radical political movements to upset the applecart, and the democracies will cave.
Apr 17, 2017 1:40 AM
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I think this is a lesson in why being able to change the Constitution by simple majority vote is really dumb. Let's be frank, if such a referendum was possible in the United States, we'd already be a dictatorship by now.
Apr 17, 2017 2:08 AM
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Bigwig
Lord ShangWonder how many points on the Democracy Index Turkey lost today?

I suspect a lot.

The most disturbing trend about all of these right-trending political movements across the democratic world isn't necessarily the trend itself, but that it is happening in a period where we have unprecedented wealth, general freedom, safety, health, and political rights as an aggregate worldwide. It almost seems like a blueprint for radical political movements to upset the applecart, and the democracies will cave.

The problem there is "aggregate".
Apr 17, 2017 3:18 AM
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theVictorian
Bigwig
Lord ShangWonder how many points on the Democracy Index Turkey lost today?

I suspect a lot.

The most disturbing trend about all of these right-trending political movements across the democratic world isn't necessarily the trend itself, but that it is happening in a period where we have unprecedented wealth, general freedom, safety, health, and political rights as an aggregate worldwide. It almost seems like a blueprint for radical political movements to upset the applecart, and the democracies will cave.

The problem there is "aggregate".

Well, ok. But that should be a sign of progression, not a steady regression over the past, what, decade?
Apr 17, 2017 3:21 AM
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Bigwig
theVictorian
Bigwig
Lord ShangWonder how many points on the Democracy Index Turkey lost today?

I suspect a lot.

The most disturbing trend about all of these right-trending political movements across the democratic world isn't necessarily the trend itself, but that it is happening in a period where we have unprecedented wealth, general freedom, safety, health, and political rights as an aggregate worldwide. It almost seems like a blueprint for radical political movements to upset the applecart, and the democracies will cave.

The problem there is "aggregate".

Well, ok. But that should be a sign of progression, not a steady regression over the past, what, decade?

Isn't the divide between rich and poor getting wider and wider?
Apr 17, 2017 3:26 AM
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Detrimental
Bigwig
theVictorian
Bigwig
Lord ShangWonder how many points on the Democracy Index Turkey lost today?

I suspect a lot.

The most disturbing trend about all of these right-trending political movements across the democratic world isn't necessarily the trend itself, but that it is happening in a period where we have unprecedented wealth, general freedom, safety, health, and political rights as an aggregate worldwide. It almost seems like a blueprint for radical political movements to upset the applecart, and the democracies will cave.

The problem there is "aggregate".

Well, ok. But that should be a sign of progression, not a steady regression over the past, what, decade?

Isn't the divide between rich and poor getting wider and wider?

Yes. No. Depends.
Apr 17, 2017 4:01 AM
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For fuck sakes Bigwig.
Apr 17, 2017 4:05 AM
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Bigwig
Lord ShangWonder how many points on the Democracy Index Turkey lost today?

I suspect a lot.

The most disturbing trend about all of these right-trending political movements across the democratic world isn't necessarily the trend itself, but that it is happening in a period where we have unprecedented wealth, general freedom, safety, health, and political rights as an aggregate worldwide. It almost seems like a blueprint for radical political movements to upset the applecart, and the democracies will cave.

It's the marching moron problem. Most people are not fit for self-rule, having neither the chops and more to the point inclination to do the necessary work. Democracy is fundamentally incompatiable with well-reasoned political policy outcomes.

We should expect more outcomes like this. Authoritarians will win. liberalism is fighting the long defeat.
Apr 18, 2017 11:45 PM
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Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 720
Bigwig
Lord ShangWonder how many points on the Democracy Index Turkey lost today?

I suspect a lot.

The most disturbing trend about all of these right-trending political movements across the democratic world isn't necessarily the trend itself, but that it is happening in a period where we have unprecedented wealth, general freedom, safety, health, and political rights as an aggregate worldwide. It almost seems like a blueprint for radical political movements to upset the applecart, and the democracies will cave.

It's the marching moron problem. Most people are not fit for self-rule, having neither the chops and more to the point inclination to do the necessary work. Democracy is fundamentally incompatiable with well-reasoned political policy outcomes.

We should expect more outcomes like this. Authoritarians will win. liberalism is fighting the long defeat.
Apr 18, 2017 11:47 PM
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I'll still take the long win for liberalism, because it's been doing the long win for centuries. It was never going to be a straight ascension without setbacks, and hasn't been.
Apr 19, 2017 12:09 AM
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BigwigI'll still take the long win for liberalism, because it's been doing the long win for centuries. It was never going to be a straight ascension without setbacks, and hasn't been.

Islamism is a big fucking problem, though. Religious people often throw their rights away for their belief's ascendancy, and with capital punishment for apostasy and so on, we've seen multiple liberalised Muslim countries slide into theocratic hellholes. Yes, Western foreign policy is to blame, but once they're in you can't seem to get them out.

There was Ba'athism, but we killed that movement ourselves with the last few wars when the Ba'ath strongmen got out of our control.

I was listening to an ex-Muslim religious refugee discuss the wave of craziness that's going to hit Islam as vast numbers of young people are exposed to the net and all the anti-religious material on there and the fundamentalists desperately crack down on heresy. I mean, this may be the beginning of reform, but reactionaries could win at a local level for a long time if recent history is anything to go by.
Apr 19, 2017 12:34 AM
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theVictorian
BigwigI'll still take the long win for liberalism, because it's been doing the long win for centuries. It was never going to be a straight ascension without setbacks, and hasn't been.

Islamism is a big fucking problem,?

Sure.
Apr 19, 2017 1:25 AM
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Bigwig
theVictorian
BigwigI'll still take the long win for liberalism, because it's been doing the long win for centuries. It was never going to be a straight ascension without setbacks, and hasn't been.

Islamism is a big fucking problem,?

Sure.

It's a bit of a wrinkle in your assertion. We had the dark ages after the classical era, and we may be heading towards a new dark ages for a lot of the planet.
Apr 19, 2017 1:53 AM
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theVictorian
Bigwig
theVictorian
BigwigI'll still take the long win for liberalism, because it's been doing the long win for centuries. It was never going to be a straight ascension without setbacks, and hasn't been.

Islamism is a big fucking problem,?

Sure.

It's a bit of a wrinkle in your assertion. We had the dark ages after the classical era, and we may be heading towards a new dark ages for a lot of the planet.

The world's different. Don't see that happening. The dark ages lasted centuries. Even if it is so for much of the planet, that's still not the whole planet.
Apr 19, 2017 2:05 AM
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Bigwig
theVictorian
Bigwig
theVictorian
BigwigI'll still take the long win for liberalism, because it's been doing the long win for centuries. It was never going to be a straight ascension without setbacks, and hasn't been.

Islamism is a big fucking problem,?

Sure.

It's a bit of a wrinkle in your assertion. We had the dark ages after the classical era, and we may be heading towards a new dark ages for a lot of the planet.

The world's different. Don't see that happening. The dark ages lasted centuries. Even if it is so for much of the planet, that's still not the whole planet.

It is different, but that isn't necessarily comforting. In 400 AD, humans were ignorant and powerless enough they could afford to go down the wrong path for centuries without irreversible damage to the world and the chances of our survival as a species. But in an age of nuclear weapons, climate change, potential artificial intelligence and so on, a big enough fuck up can lead to our extinction.
Apr 19, 2017 2:28 AM
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Yeah, I'll still take the trend dating back centuries for a long-term prediction. But arghh hand-wringing.
Apr 19, 2017 2:47 AM
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BigwigYeah, I'll still take the trend dating back centuries for a long-term prediction. But arghh hand-wringing.

I'm sure at the height of the centuries of the Roman Empire's existence they thought: "this'll never end!"
Apr 19, 2017 4:53 AM
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