Baseball 2017

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 13322
PaulsonBaylor's '79 MVP has to be the worst awards' decision ever, right?

I mean...maybe? That's little early for me. I do remember Juan Gonzalez winning ARod's award and Barry Bonds getting screwed by teammate Jeff Kent.
Aug 7, 2017 11:20 PM
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Baylor was arguably the fourth best player on his own team that year. I don't know if he even finished in the top 20 in the AL in WAR. That's pretty damn bad.
Aug 7, 2017 11:23 PM
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PaulsonBaylor was arguably the fourth best player on his own team that year. I don't know if he even finished in the top 20 in the AL in WAR. That's pretty damn bad.

It's bad, but it's not the worst awards decision even within the same year. Willie Stargell was separated from the WAR leader by 6.2 (!) WAR and ranked 54th in the NL that year, yet somehow shared the award with the far more deserving Keith Hernandez.

1974 was another historically bad year for the BBWAA, electing Steve Garvey and Jeff Burroughs, who combined for 76 (!) more worthy candidates between them.

Of course, there are also the four years the BBWAA elected relievers, which are all complete disasters.
Aug 8, 2017 9:26 PM
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Some other objectively terrible picks:

- Mickey Cochrane, 1934 AL
- Thurman Munson, 1976 AL
- Juan Gonzalez, 1996 AL (maybe the absolute worst)
- Juan Gonzalez, 1998 AL
- Miguel Tejada, 2002 AL
- Justin Morneau, 2006 AL

- Bucky Walters, 1939 NL
- Marty Marion, 1944 NL
- Maury Wills, 1962 NL
- Ken Boyer, 1964 NL
- Andre Dawson, 1987 NL
Aug 8, 2017 9:36 PM
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Posts: 750
Infinitus Corsair
chunkylover
Infinitus Corsair
JeanHello. Below are the top ten most deserving retired position players and starting pitchers still eligible (or not yet eligible) for the Hall of Fame.

Who do you think is getting in among this group?

1. Barry Bonds
2. Alex Rodriguez
3. Chipper Jones
4. Scott Rolen
5. Andruw Jones
6. Derek Jeter
7. Larry Walker
8. Jim Thome
9. Edgar Martinez
10. Manny Ramirez

1. Roger Clemens
2. Curt Schilling
3. Mike Mussina
4. Roy Halladay
5. Andy Pettitte
6. Roy Oswalt
7. Cliff Lee
8. Tim Hudson
9. Mark Buehrle
10. Johan Santana

Chipper and Jeter are locks. I think Bonds and Clemens are going to get moving the next couple of votes and will get in which would clear the way for Rodriguez.

I don't think Martinez or Walker have enough time or momentum. Ramirez's case isn't as overwhelming as the Bonds/Clemens/A-Rod group, plus his infraction was post-testing. Andruw belongs but too much of his case is not easily quantifiable (defense). Thome's is the opposite and seems to have that Frank Thomas/Ken Griffey clean reputation, so I think he'll draw lots of support and go in.


Defense isn't easily quantifiable, but isn't Andruw Jones just generally regarded as one of the best defensive outfielders ever? Like maybe the best ever at his peak? I feel like most voters already recognize that and won't need much convincing statistically.

They may recognize that but they don't know how to equate it to the offense put up by guys like Chipper and Thome. The only players to make it on primarily on a defensive reputation have been shortstops. Bill Mazeroski was probably considered the best fielding second baseman of the 20th century but he needed the VC to get in. I may be judging based on an outmoded view of the electorate's statistical acumen, but they expect offense out of outfielders and a bunch of .250/30 homer seasons probably doesn't get cut it by historical standards. Andruw is sort of a rich man's Jimmy Wynn, superficially, and that guy didn't sniff election.

Evers and Chance would like a word with you. They are famed because of double plays.?
Aug 9, 2017 1:35 AM
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Apparently a full quarter of the Phillies' wins have come from the Braves.
Aug 10, 2017 1:59 AM
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Posts: 37
BigwigPirates announced that Marte would move to CF (long overdue) and that Cutch will play RF, Polanco LF. This is a good thing for Pirate defense.

Reading this months later makes me sad, for like nine different reasons.
Aug 14, 2017 11:31 PM
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Posts: 11804
JeanApparently a full quarter of the Phillies' wins have come from the Braves.

*Barves
Aug 15, 2017 7:11 AM
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Posts: 11804
TWTCommish
BigwigPirates announced that Marte would move to CF (long overdue) and that Cutch will play RF, Polanco LF. This is a good thing for Pirate defense.

Reading this months later makes me sad, for like nine different reasons.

Is this the real TWTCommish?
Aug 15, 2017 7:11 AM
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Posts: 37

An impostor wouldn't bother to try to mimic my existential angst over all things Pittsburgh Pirates.
Aug 15, 2017 12:13 PM
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TWTCommish
An impostor wouldn't bother to try to mimic my existential angst over all things Pittsburgh Pirates.

I feel like Novelty might have before he died.
Aug 16, 2017 6:10 AM
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Infinitus CorsairI feel like Novelty might have before he died.

I assume that means he's just not around, but it's been long enough that I have no idea if this is literal.
Aug 16, 2017 12:01 PM
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Posts: 37
Anyway, sometime last year I basically stopped following the Pirates on a daily basis, after a few years of following them very intently. Started to feel pointless, knowing that a three hour coin flip was the best-case scenario at the end of the year (I went to all three Wild Card games).

Naturally, after I throw in the towel, they actually have an outside shot at winning a division, despite being under .500. This would force me to care again.

It's almost comical how inefficiently their wins have been distributed. They keep losing the division by just a few games. Win 94, St. Louis wins 97. Win 88, St. Louis wins 90. Win 98, St. Louis wins 100. Shuffle those around just a tiny bit and we'd be looking at multiple NL Central titles. It's almost like their opponents have a certain number of wins for the decade they can distribute as needed in any given year.

Baseball can be pretty dumb.
Aug 16, 2017 12:06 PM
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As if we needed more evidence that a 2nd wild card team cheapens the playoffs...just look at the AL standings right now.
Aug 21, 2017 3:00 PM
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Paris the GoatAs if we needed more evidence that a 2nd wild card team cheapens the playoffs...just look at the AL standings right now.

Agreed, but the funny thing is, it actually does address the *earlier* complaint everyone had about the playoffs, which is that there wasn't enough penalty for being a Wild Card team instead of a division winner.
Aug 21, 2017 3:10 PM
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6847
TWTCommish
Paris the GoatAs if we needed more evidence that a 2nd wild card team cheapens the playoffs...just look at the AL standings right now.

Agreed, but the funny thing is, it actually does address the *earlier* complaint everyone had about the playoffs, which is that there wasn't enough penalty for being a Wild Card team instead of a division winner.

Eh. Personally, I think divisions are just a necessary evil to simplify travel. I don't want an artificial penalty for not winning a division if you're in the playoffs. But that's me.
Aug 21, 2017 3:13 PM
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I understand that Paul Goldschmidt is the current front-runner for NL MVP, but I'm not really clear why Nolan Arenado isn't widely considered a top 3 candidate, too. I think a fair amount of folks actually do, but for others, he's kind of lumped into that next group (like top 5 or 10 candidates). I don't follow sabermetrics very thoroughly, so it's unclear how consistently valued (or not) fielding is placed in a lot of the WAR calculations, etc. (and I understand several diff publications have their own WAR formulas).

EDIT: And I know playoff destinies may well factor into this, too. If Colorado misses the playoffs, forget about Arenado-as-MVP. But if the Rockies clinch and, say, Arizona does not... that would seem to take the shine off of Goldy's case a bit, too.
Aug 21, 2017 4:40 PM
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neumdaddyI understand that Paul Goldschmidt is the current front-runner for NL MVP, but I'm not really clear why Nolan Arenado isn't widely considered a top 3 candidate, too. I think a fair amount of folks actually do, but for others, he's kind of lumped into that next group (like top 5 or 10 candidates). I don't follow sabermetrics very thoroughly, so it's unclear how consistently valued (or not) fielding is placed in a lot of the WAR calculations, etc. (and I understand several diff publications have their own WAR formulas).

EDIT: And I know playoff destinies may well factor into this, too. If Colorado misses the playoffs, forget about Arenado-as-MVP. But if the Rockies clinch and, say, Arizona does not... that would seem to take the shine off of Goldy's case a bit, too.

Baseball Reference has him at 2.3 WAR on defense right now, 4th in the league. On Fangraphs he's only at 0.8 WAR for defense. So, if you think he's the best defensive infielder this side of Andrelton Simmons, he's about tied with Goldschmidt in the MVP race, and if you think he's merely solidly above average, then he's in a pack with about 10 other dudes.

EDIT: Incidentally, Fangraphs seems to like Blackmon as an MVP more than Arenado.
Aug 21, 2017 4:59 PM
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Is there a resource that voters typically lean towards as more definitive? Seems like more and more are factoring sabermetrics into their voting, though certainly not everywhere.
Aug 21, 2017 7:49 PM
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I'm pretty sure ninety percent of voters still use fielding percentage.
Aug 21, 2017 10:24 PM
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