The Sweet Science

Joined: Sep 2008
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Janson, you look to be underrating Terence Crawford's power. He has plenty of it for the 140 division. He doesn't have one-punch knockout capability (very few boxers do), but he does have power in both hands (very few boxers do). Crawford gets a lot of late round stoppages, and a lot of that is corners/refs ending the fight simply because the opponent is being outclassed and there is simply no reason to continue with the punishment. But, Crawford certainly isn't like Mayweather or Erislandy Lara who simply stays away later in the fight when he is up on the cards. He still goes after the KO and gives fans what they have come to see.

The best thing about Terence Crawford may be how he manages himself. He continues going after interesting fights, and he has tried to get legendary fighters into the ring with him. Manny Pacquiao opted to go after Jeff Horn in his home country of Australia, and that's not an egregious opponent (Manny did lose...I guess), but he reportedly turned a Crawford fight that would have landed Pac more money and continued with a career where he's taken on the best-of-the-best. Horn's win takes the steam out of a future Crawford matchup, and that's too bad because I would have loved to see the torch being passed.

Still, Crawford will be giving us a free fight later this month against Julius Indongo, and the winner of that takes everything - WBC, IBF, WBO, WBA belts, Ring Magazine's title, and the lineal championship at 140 lbs. Indongo is the very heavy underdog, but that's still a fight a great champion like Crawford has to make no matter how many levels above he is to the other belt-holder.

Crawford gets fights that Vasyl Lomachenko's camp doesn't. Loma is also giving us a free HBO fight in August, but it's against Miguel Marriaga. That's a bullshit fight. Loma apologists (whom I am one) argue that Loma has difficulty finding opponents. I do believe there is truth to that, and with his last three fights Loma has fought B+ or better opponents in former champions Rocky Martinez, Nicholas Walters, and Jason Sosa. None of these guys were thought to be on Lomachenko's level (though Walters was only a 2-1 dog). I've no complaints with those fights, but Marriaga (25-2, 21 KO's) is a guy whom has never held a belt with a weak list of opponents. Plus, he's coming off of a loss to Oscar Valdez. His loss to Valdez and his other loss to Walters were unanimous decisions. His power looks to be impressive, but that has to be his only chance. If he is being decisioned by Valdez and Walters, then Marriaga has no business earning this payday.

Lomachenko was said to have moved from featherweight to junior lightweight in order to find better competition. That looked to be the case, but not any more. Loma got Walters to quit on his stool, and fellow two-time Olympic Gold Medalist Guillermo Rigondeaux is too small of a man to follow Loma into the 130's. The only other super-fights for Loma currently would be in the 135 lbs. class, and that would take away some of Loma's advantages as he is naturally smaller and I have some doubts that his power carries to that size. I would still have Lomachenko favored over anybody in that weight class, but I believe Vegas would have Mikey Garcia and Loma as an even fight. The best fight for Loma is Rigondeaux, but at lightweight Loma has some options. Garcia is the class of that division as he has spectacular one-punch KO power and he has it in both hands. The power and size would likely even things up with Loma's greater set of skills. The smarter fight for Loma's camp is Jorge Linares. The other two belt holders other than Linares and Garcia are Terry Flanagan and Robert Easter, Jr. I watched both fight recently, and neither are in Linares or Garcia's class.
Jul 17, 2017 12:27 AM
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Speaking of Lomachenko and the 130 lbs. weight class, last night HBO had two top flight bouts with two titles on the line.

Robinson Castellanos lost a majority decision to Ring Magazine's #3 junior lightweight and WBA belt holder Jezreel Corrales. An entertaining but awkward fight, Corrales was dropped twice in one round and he later came back to put Castellanos onto the canvas. Up-thread, Zuben mentioned the size of boxing gloves and the protection they offer. That's certainly true, but last night Corrales threw a punch that Castellanos managed to block, but the punch still pushed the glove into Castellanos's face and dropped him though without much injury. I had Castellanos winning, and we are likely to see a rematch.

The main event involved Ring Magazine's #5 contender Takashi Miura challenging Ring's #4 and WBC champ Miguel Berchelt. The champ has some skill, and he was winning I thought every round of the bout. Though one-sided, we still had plenty of drama as Miura and Berchelt were absolutely crushing each other's rib-cages and livers. Talent-wise, Miura was over-matched but he stuck to the strategy of hunting Berchelt's body. Miura is a one-handed boxer, but his left does serious damage. He also throws it with exaggerated emphasis, so he was still in the fight until the last round. Both are heavy-handed, but they are also tough as a leather couch. This was a case where two guys have 7/10 power, and 9/10 toughness. It's the type of fight that makes you wince when you see it and then wince later once you realize that it's these type of fights that shorten careers.

None of these four guys are a threat to Lomachenko. The only non-title holder currently at this weight whom I would want to see Loma square off against is Orlando Salido. Of course if you are unfamiliar, Salido beat Lomachenko in an absolute robbery in Texas. Here's a link to a Wiki page dedicated to that bullshit. Salido is over-the-hill now, and it would likely be a final cash out for him. Loma would get to avenge his loss pretty easily, and then he could move around to fight competitive fighters irrespective of weight classes. I would be very much in favor of Loma and catchweights if need be. That's the hope anyway.

Yesterday was a fun day of fighting. We had a nice card at Wembly Stadium with Chris Eubank, Jr. beating Arthur Abraham and Lee Selby keeping his belt over Jonathan Barros. Fox Network showed Omar Figueroa dispatch Ghost Guerrero. Then, Joe Smith, Jr. who last punched Bernard Hopkins through the ropes and onto the floor couldn't manage more than a flash first round knockdown of Sullivan Barrera. Barrera came back and dominated. Barrera is a talented guy whose only loss came to Andre Ward. Considering how badly Barrera was dominated by him, that says a great deal about Andre Ward. If we're making a fair pound-for-pound listing due to resume, then Andre Ward HAS to be the pick right now.
Jul 17, 2017 12:50 AM
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Damn, Moses mansplaining the shit out of Janson there!

Welcome back to the boxing thread Janson, glad you enjoyed Loma's and Crawford's fights. You should check out Joshua vs Wlad as well, it's a fight of the year contender.

Guys, if Loma and Rigo don't fight it'll be an absolute travesty. You're talking about two generational talents here who are just about the same size. Boxing has started to get it's act together this year with several examples of "the best fighting the best", but that is one fight that absolutely has to happen.

On boxing gloves for defence, yeah of course, but any boxer worth his salt combines blocking, parrying, head and body movement. Plus feints, a jab, etc etc. It's an exaggeration to suggest that boxers can easily block both their face and the side of their head at the same time. Of course the greater surface area helps in that regard compared to MMA gloves and makes it somewhat possible in contrast to not at all, but it's not a winning long-term strategy. Perhaps the best example of this is Arthur Abraham, who does rely largely on purely blocking for defence. His high guard is probably the best in the game and it can be difficult to break down. But you saw over the weekend against a fast fighter with good punch variety, that this defense will be breached time and time again and clean punches will land to the face and head.
Jul 17, 2017 9:40 AM
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My P4 list is more heavily weighted towards skills and abilities than resume (although I consider both) but even under that criteria, Andre Ward is the best boxer in the world right now. I think Loma and Rigo are in a category not far off, but they haven't fought the level of competition that Ward has, so it's more difficult to assess just how great they are.?
Jul 17, 2017 9:44 AM
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Moses, that wiki article you've written about the Loma Salido bout seems a little... salty. It was a close fight, but calling it outright robbery or whatever is too much.

Having said that, Laurence Cole is considered by many boxing fans including myself to be one of if not the worst referees in the sport. But you've just got to suck it up when you get him as ref. That fight was too soon for Loma, he got old-manned in there.

The best referee? Maybe Steve Smoger. That motherfucker flat out lets guys fight. And he ain't quick to stop a fight either.
Jul 17, 2017 9:58 AM
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MosesJanson, you look to be underrating Terence Crawford's power.

Only relative to Diaz, who I think may have one-punch knockout power if he could ever connect one of those uppercuts. Clearly Crawford had effectively overpowered him after a few rounds, but it was precarious in the early rounds. He received one tough hit that stunned him, somewhere in the 3rd or 4th. Of course Crawford did considerable damage when he engaged, but he probably couldn't withstand an equal number of hits from Diaz, who seemed heavier, larger arms and broader shoulders, etc.

MosesThe best thing about Terence Crawford may be how he manages himself. He continues going after interesting fights, and he has tried to get legendary fighters into the ring with him.

Gee, I wonder why Floyd was never interested....

MosesLoma apologists (whom I am one) argue that Loma has difficulty finding opponents.

I've heard this discussed during a couple of his fights. Basically, it seems, no one wants to fight him, and he's only interested in title fights, so moving up in weight class seems inevitable. Obviously, his footwork and agility are essential, but I'm not sure how badly this would be compromised by an extra stone or two.

MosesSpeaking of Lomachenko and the 130 lbs. weight class, last night HBO had two top flight bouts with two titles on the line.

Thanks. I'll skip over your spoilers and watch them when my HBO app is working again. (It was not working last night, I assume due to a technical problem resulting from all of the GoT traffic or something.)

MosesOf course if you are unfamiliar, Salido beat Lomachenko in an absolute robbery in Texas. Here's a link to a Wiki page dedicated to that bullshit.

As a matter of fact, I was just reading that page the other day. I was very curious to find out about the one loss on his record.
Jul 17, 2017 6:28 PM
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Garcia vs Broner Moses, who you got? A serious Broner at 140 lbs? That's no joke. Could be a problem for Garcia.?

I'm kinda 50-50 on this one. Leaning towards Garcia though.
Jul 29, 2017 5:12 PM
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briggmGarcia vs Broner Moses, who you got? A serious Broner at 140 lbs? That's no joke. Could be a problem for Garcia.?

I'm kinda 50-50 on this one. Leaning towards Garcia though.

I got Garcia. Also Charlo.
Jul 30, 2017 12:24 AM
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Moses
briggmGarcia vs Broner Moses, who you got? A serious Broner at 140 lbs? That's no joke. Could be a problem for Garcia.?

I'm kinda 50-50 on this one. Leaning towards Garcia though.

I got Garcia. Also Charlo.

I am obviously a genius.
Jul 30, 2017 3:07 AM
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The Charlo fight was a bit of a farce. That's two in as many cards, America. You guys messed up the Rigo fight, and although technically a no-contest and rematch is the right outcome, it's also the worst outcome because now Rigo has to waste time fighting a guy he clearly outclasses when he should be fighting somebody good.

I didn't see Heiland coming to the ring, but what sort of bullshit boxing commission lets him leave his dressing room with his knee taped and then tells him to remove the tape in the ring? Is that actually what happened? That's what I heard.

I had no idea about the knee problem before the opening bell, but I knew within 10 seconds that he was bringing an injury into the fight. Either that or he had cerebral palsy. The fight should have been stopped earlier than it was, if not by the ref or doctor then at least by his corner. I understand him going ahead with the fight, the guy has to eat, but he was too brave there. He caught everything Charlo threw and he was lucky not to get violently knocked out. Or tear his ACL.

As for Garcia v Broner, I thought the fight would play out closer the last three rounds where AB was causing some problems with his speed and by digging hard shots. But this was easy work for Garcia.
Jul 30, 2017 9:47 PM
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Lomachenko's card has started. It's on ESPN and ESPN2. Watch this shit, bros.
Aug 6, 2017 2:47 AM
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Showcase fights don't get much more showcase-y that that one, gentlemen.

This best comparison I have for Lomachenko right now is how opposing MLB managers dealt with Barry Bonds in the early 2000s. Like Nicholas Walters' corner, Marriaga's corner quit out of futility. They just didn't want to know what to do with Loma, so they gave him the intentional walk to prevent further damage.
Aug 6, 2017 6:12 AM
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Briggm, gentlemen, I hope you're staying up to watch this HBO "Superfly" card. It's easily the best boxing card scheduled this year, and this year has been pretty damn impressive.

I'm just now starting the fights on tape delay since I watched Oklahoma defeat Ohio State. I've been looking forward to this card ever since it has been announced. All three fights are nearly 50-50. I do believe Naoye Inoue emerges as the night's biggest winner.
Sep 10, 2017 3:24 AM
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End of an era.
Sep 10, 2017 4:58 AM
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Last TV Boxing I've seen: around 1986 or 1996, Tyson on ABC. Others free on ABC, maybe De la Hoya.

Last PPV: De la Hoya vs. Quartay, where Quartay rather obviously won. Still PPV, pizzas, white russians, a big thing and event, but we all had to chip in just to pay for the pizzas and PPV and such, and Ike still obviously beat Oscar but ain't no judgin' like the shitty judging;

Can't remember any since. Since results of judges didn't much be akin to actual results. And since the price went up. Sorry. Why bother watching a match if three morons can't agree with what was seen. What gain, what value. Only sorrow, and ANGRY.

AGAIN, Boxing used to feature good bouts on ABC. Free. Easy network.

I mean we can go on and on about MMA vs. boxing, but yeah. I also saw the first MMA. PPV fight with the tooth, live. I'm an old child.

Not sure what boxing draws could command $$$ except for some recent joke like that one. Ain't no Holyfields left. Not even Klitschkos. Not that British Lennox Lewis. Not JC Chavez. The day of care of boxing is long gone. With The Ring and such. With ranking by various regulartories, the ABC the ABF the XXFUCK, the whatever.

Want a renewal of boxing? Put it free on TV, with good boxers. Fucking duh.

Gene Tunney, and Joe Lewis, would beat the fuck out of anyone. Contemplate that.

One edit for content, four+ so far for ??????? marks, you shit website.
Sep 10, 2017 6:35 AM
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MosesBriggm, gentlemen, I hope you're staying up to watch this HBO "Superfly" card. It's easily the best boxing card scheduled this year, and this year has been pretty damn impressive.

I'm just now starting the fights on tape delay since I watched Oklahoma defeat Ohio State. I've been looking forward to this card ever since it has been announced. All three fights are nearly 50-50. I do believe Naoye Inoue emerges as the night's biggest winner.

I didn't stay up but I watched the card. Well, apart from the two Mexicans. Anyway, very good. I like Inoue and the KO of Chocolatito was top draw. Some great fights to be made in that division.

Moses, one of the most significant middleweight fights since Leonard vs Hagler is upon us. I'm sticking with Canelo by decision, but I'm a bit worried about the bulk he's piled on. His speed is an advantage over GGG. He also looks a bit overtrained.

I don't think this'll be the war people are expecting from the opening bell. It'll be highly tactical early.
Sep 14, 2017 1:59 PM
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briggm
MosesBriggm, gentlemen, I hope you're staying up to watch this HBO "Superfly" card. It's easily the best boxing card scheduled this year, and this year has been pretty damn impressive.

I'm just now starting the fights on tape delay since I watched Oklahoma defeat Ohio State. I've been looking forward to this card ever since it has been announced. All three fights are nearly 50-50. I do believe Naoye Inoue emerges as the night's biggest winner.

I didn't stay up but I watched the card. Well, apart from the two Mexicans. Anyway, very good. I like Inoue and the KO of Chocolatito was top draw. Some great fights to be made in that division.

Moses, one of the most significant middleweight fights since Leonard vs Hagler is upon us. I'm sticking with Canelo by decision, but I'm a bit worried about the bulk he's piled on. His speed is an advantage over GGG. He also looks a bit overtrained.

I don't think this'll be the war people are expecting from the opening bell. It'll be highly tactical early.

See, now I am "worried" about just how involved Canelo's promotion is in this fight. It's the same promotion that got one judge to say that he beat Mayweather. So, now more than ever, I think GGG has to knock him out.
Sep 14, 2017 6:17 PM
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briggm
MosesBriggm, gentlemen, I hope you're staying up to watch this HBO "Superfly" card. It's easily the best boxing card scheduled this year, and this year has been pretty damn impressive.

I'm just now starting the fights on tape delay since I watched Oklahoma defeat Ohio State. I've been looking forward to this card ever since it has been announced. All three fights are nearly 50-50. I do believe Naoye Inoue emerges as the night's biggest winner.

I didn't stay up but I watched the card. Well, apart from the two Mexicans. Anyway, very good. I like Inoue and the KO of Chocolatito was top draw. Some great fights to be made in that division.

Moses, one of the most significant middleweight fights since Leonard vs Hagler is upon us. I'm sticking with Canelo by decision, but I'm a bit worried about the bulk he's piled on. His speed is an advantage over GGG. He also looks a bit overtrained.

I don't think this'll be the war people are expecting from the opening bell. It'll be highly tactical early.

See, now I am "worried" about just how involved Canelo's promotion is in this fight. It's the same promotion that got one judge to say that he beat Mayweather. So, now more than ever, I think GGG has to knock him out.
Sep 14, 2017 6:17 PM
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Briggm and I will certainly be watching, but everybody needs to know about the upcoming Guillermo Rigondeaux versus Vasyl Lomachenko fight. It was officially signed today and will commence December 9th. I believe this is the first time two 2X Olympic Gold Medalists have squared off in the ring as professionals. There are not two better true boxers living on the planet right now, so this fight is a must.
Sep 15, 2017 5:18 PM
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MosesBriggm and I will certainly be watching, but everybody needs to know about the upcoming Guillermo Rigondeaux versus Vasyl Lomachenko fight. It was officially signed today and will commence December 9th. I believe this is the first time two 2X Olympic Gold Medalists have squared off in the ring as professionals. There are not two better true boxers living on the planet right now, so this fight is a must.

This is such a great time to be alive and watching boxing amirite? About 5+ years ago I remember somebody asking which 5 fights you'd most like to see, and after coming up with a list (Floyd vs Manny and the like) I couldn't help but think that none of these fights were going to happen, this guy fought for Arum, the other Golden Boy and so on. But what about now in 2017?

Canelo vs Golovkin. Happening tomorrow.
Rigo vs Loma. Signed for December.
Ward vs Kovalev. Happened this year and last.
Joshua vs Wilder. Unless one of them loses, very likely to happen next year.
And, I don't know, how about Crawford vs Spence Jr. They're both the best in their divisions and seem willing to fight anybody, so I don't see why this won't happen once Crawford moves to 147 which will probably be soon.

That's a pretty solid batting average.
Sep 15, 2017 9:12 PM
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