Fantasy vs. dream

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Joined: Nov 2001
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Most people believed the first 3/4 of the film is Diane's dream. But how can he control what she dreams? She may subconsciously want things to work out a certain way, but for her dream to materialize exactly the way she wanted is a flawed approach. I believe it is actually her fantasy. Some of it was dream, meshed with lots of wishful thinking. She may have fallen in and out of sleep and maybe envisioned what her perfect world would be.
Nov 14, 2001 4:58 PM
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I agree that it could be a combination of dream and fantasy. Some parts would have to be a dream like the 2 guys in Winkies. I disagree about everything materializing like she wanted. She still didn't get the part. I think Rita/Camilla still didn't love her and she kills Rita in the dream by giving her the blue box to open. I think everything turned out about the same in the dream/fantasy except Diane had a much better picture of herself then what was true in real life. Don't we all.
Nov 14, 2001 5:50 PM
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She still didn't get the part....the whole pool party sequence was real. In her dream, she had all the talent in the world. Please correct my memory: when did she dreamed that she lost out to another woman for a part?
Nov 14, 2001 7:12 PM
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One other thing: in her so-called dream, Rita never fell out of love with her. The part where Rita mutters Silencio is a prelude to Diane waking up. As Diane shakes in the show, she is about to be awoken. Diane did not kill Rita in the "dream" via blue box. The blue box is a symbol of evil/guilt and as such, linked to Rita's death. When the blue box is opened, the dream is over and Rita once again is gone (dead).
Nov 14, 2001 7:19 PM
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In her dream she was taken to the set of the Silvia North Story by the big casting director she met at the audition to audition for a part that "she would kill, knock right out of the park". But right after she got there Adam was saying "this is the girl"(Camilla) which Betty knew since it was her dream/fantasy. Betty, with no reason to audition then left to help Rita. So you're telling me she got the part she wanted so bad (the lead in the Silvia North Story)? Or she got any other part? Or she was going to get the part in the movie that "poor Wally would never make"?
She didn't wow the director at her audition he said it was "forced" and said "very good, really" twice in a very condecending way. She did wow the producer Wally and every body else but Bob Booker still didn't think much of her. She did make him out to look like a fool though.
As for Rita loving Betty - when two people are making love and one tells the other one "I'm in love with you" and then a few moments go by and that person tells them again "I'm in love with you" and the other person remains silent I see that as unrequited(sp) love. There is a difference between kissing, sex, making love and love.
As for the blue box the only thing relating to the blue box in real life is the real blue key the real hit man leaves as a signal that the murder is completed. Why would Diane introduce the fantasy blue key and money into her dream if it was a utopian idea of life. Betty puts those things away in the closet in case she needs them later. Diane knows nothing of the details of the murder- time, place, method etc. There is even a hint that she looked at the papers and could not find anything. The only thing Diane knows is when the key is "used" (she asked him what does it open?)Camilla is killed. Thats why I feel she produced the blue box from her purse knowing Rita would open it. Listen to Roy Orbison's "Crying" to get the mood that Betty was in when she pulled that box out. Listen to the exact verse when the box was pulled out. The words to that song have nothing to do with evil or guilt on Betty/Dianes part. They have all to do with the sorrow of loving someone who does not love you. I'm not saying I'm right and you are wrong just saying there are other interpretations besides the popular ones.
Nov 14, 2001 10:09 PM
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question

Is the Sylvia North story the same movie that Adam was making? I didnt think it was, The movie Adam was making was like a 50's style grease movie and all the actors and actresses were young(woody was alot older). The part she auditioned for seemed nothing like it would be in that movie. Adam was the director of that movie not Bob.I think she dreamed that the Sylvia North story was never going to be made as a way to console herself in her dream she didnt get the part. As far as the 50's movie she probably figured she was perfect for the part especially since she won a jitterbug contest,so she dreamed up this elaborate behind the scenes scheme to keep her from getting the part. Which to me is right after Adam says this is the girl she remembers she has to help Rita, and I think the reason Adam looks at her longingly twice is Diane imagining that Adam really wanted her. hmmm i just thought of something new to go on another post
Nov 15, 2001 11:56 AM
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Thanks Elaine for your insights.

Re: Rita being stoic when Diane said she loved her - doesn't this mark the beginning of the end of the fantasy/dream? As I recall, in the same evening, Rita muttered Silencio - Rita takes her there to let Diane know everything is an illusion - in actual fact, Diane herself is beginning to realize the truth - which is why she crying at the show. So I think this sequence follows logically.

Re: Bluebox - I have to add that the dark man in the corner is closely associated with the box.

I also think (as others may also think), that mixed in with her fantasy/dream are dashes of twisted reality - this explains the money and her audition.
Nov 15, 2001 12:00 PM
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You're always a source of valued comments. Thanks again Elaine.

One question, do you (or Fear) or anyone else find anything that you disliked about the film?

I saw it last week with maybe 4 other people in the entire theatre. Too bad this flick isn't getting the attention that it should. I thought the entire film was flawless. I don't think there was any plot hole - did you see any? There was not one thing I disliked about it. Naomi Watts' performance was awe-inspiring.
Nov 15, 2001 7:37 PM
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Elaine-
The movie Adam directs that he is forced to cast blonde Cammilla ,the one that Carol sings 16 Reasons as an audition is the Silvia North Story. Just before Camilla sings Ive told every little star the directors assistant says "Camilla Rhodes, Sylvia North Story take one". The other unnamed movie he directs is sometime later -the one with the Adam/Camilla kissing scene in the car. No name was given for the film that Betty auditioned for but it was at the same time and across the street from TSNS according to the casting director. The casting director also said that Wally Browns days were over and he would never get that movie made. I agree with Fear that the energy between Betty and Adam on the set was showing that Adam would really prefer Betty for the part. I think all
posting here have great ideas on the film---you guys make some of those critics look like fools.
Nov 15, 2001 7:52 PM
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did anyone check the credits to see if Louise Bonner and the Monster behind Winkies were one in the same(actress). If you get the chance to see MD again, check the Monster's face closely during the daylight scene.

If it's indeed the same person, this could be key in fully comprehending the film.
Nov 16, 2001 6:22 AM
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Well, that eliminates that possibility. Still interesting that the Monster was played by a woman, though.
Nov 16, 2001 7:47 AM
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I don't see any evidence to substantiate the theory that "Adam wanted to cast Betty" you posted earlier. To me, that doesnt' agree with the rest of the plot. The operational opinion of most MD fans is that Adam saw her on the set of TSNS and thought either "Hey, I know her, she's dead, isn't she" or, "Hey, it's that trashy Diane chick all dressed up." This is the way I like to interpret that scene because it complements the chief underlying theme of the film-utter and complete nihilism. To me, even with the Hollywood-hip stylistics and comedic idiosyncrasies, MD is just a dark and grim film as Eraserhead and TP FWWM. It's kind of the inverse of the Sylvia Plath and Frances Farmer stories. Diane comes to tinsel town lacking talent and gets her feelings hurt, while Frances comes with too much talent and originality, and because she won't sink to the cheap level of those doing the "Hollywood shuffle" she pays for it. Diane can't rise to the occasion to do the shuffle even once.
Nov 16, 2001 8:07 AM
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AgentCooper- the main reason I think Adam wanted Betty was because he looks the sadest and most upset when she is leaving. They look at each other intensely several times and its hard to tell exactly whats going on but look at the last shot of Adam after she turns to leave, he is visably upset that she is leaving. Diane was not dead at this point in the film so I dont understand that theory. This was Dianes dream/fantasy I dont understand why Adam would know Betty was Diane if no one else did.

richdubbya Richard--Sorry it says Patti I'm on a different computer
Nov 17, 2001 12:47 PM
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That sure fits into the whole concept of her humilliating him in her dream. Good point. Speaking of Adams humilliation I noticed a couple of small points when I saw MD for the fifth time the other night. When he arrives home and sees the pool mans truck and looks out to the pool one of the deck chairs is freshly painted pink. The other thing is during the auditions on the set of TSNS adam is wearing a black shirt with pink designs. I wonder if Diane was mocking his wardrobe?
Nov 17, 2001 6:20 PM
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Re: Betty not getting the part on Woody's film: This is where Richard says she did not get the part? But because the film was never going to be made anyways, there was no part for anyone to lose to. So in Diane's fantasy world, doesn't she simply justify her acting ineptitude with an excuse that the film was not going to be made? So really, in her fantasy, she does not admit defeat, but rather, twists reality. I still have trouble grasping that "she still did not get the part" - someone help!

There's been some different theories on Adam's silent, but deep stare at Betty on the set of TSNS. I thought Adam looked somewhat perplexed, not particularly awed by Betty presence so as to suggest "wow, I wish she were in my movie", but rather puzzled, maybe even somewhat freightened. Diane probably always hated Adam's gut, so likely she would not incorporate a kind relationship with Adam in her fantasy. People have already said this, but I think Adam's reaction to Betty on the set was one of fear, maybe a sign of what's to come to him (via professional/personal destruction) later on in her fantasy. Anyone care to comment?
Nov 17, 2001 8:38 PM
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Elaine,

You wrote: "Therefore, I still think the Woody/BB film is TSNS, too."

In my opinion, asking whether or not both film projects were TSNS is basically a non-sequitor. It's like asking whether or not Rita and Camilla-the-singing-blonde are the same person. They do represent the same real-life person, but they are separate dream characters.

In other words, Diane's troubled mind has fractured the real-life Camilla into two dream characters: 1) Rita and 2) Camilla Rhodes the blonde actress who sings for Adam at the audition. This defense mechanism allows Diane to resolve her issues of professional jealosy (toward Camilla the actress) AND her feelings of hurt (toward Camilla her lover).

Similarly, Diane has fractured TSNS into two separate movie projects, one directed by Booker and one by Adam. This enables her to "get even" with each of the two Hollywood directors that she has issues with.

In summary: fractured mind = fractured characters and events. That's basically the theme of the film's construction. So to talk about whether or not two people, objects or events are "the same" requires a great deal of specificity.
Nov 18, 2001 10:49 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Elaine Perrone
Well, once again, you've taken attention to detail to new heights !

I'm going to see MD again during the week and will give you my take on the wardrobe thing.
[/QUOTE]

Elaine,

If you listen carefully at the beginning when Dianne is shown sleeping, you can actually hear her snoring.

Also, if you listen carefully during the scene with Woody, you can hear Betty say, "You better leave, Dad" instead of "You better leave before..." Because the word "before" is Woody's cue, he is left speechless.

I agree with almost everything you have said so far, except that I think the entire first part of the movie is a single dream. The back-and-forth inner struggles going on between fantasy and reality during the dream almost require it. Especially since the cowboy only wakes her up once. There may well have been other dreams, gradually evolving into this one, but this is the only one we are shown.
Nov 19, 2001 12:30 AM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Elaine Perrone
Very interesting observation about the line, "You'd better leave, Dad." You're certainly the first to have picked up on that !!! [/QUOTE]
:oActually, I may have unintentionally parahprased. I think what Betty says is, "You better get outta here, Dad." That sounds even more "childlike," and therefore even creepier.

Sorry if I misinterpreted or misrepresented your post about TSNS. I just wanted people to understand the fracturing idea, and how it stems from Dianne's fractured mind.
Nov 19, 2001 10:01 AM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Elaine Perrone
That's why it's so puzzling to me that so many reviewers have complained about MD being illogical or incomprehensible.[/QUOTE]
Well, in a sense the film is a metaphor for life itself and final judgment. In other words, you reap what you sow... or you get out what you put in. Perhaps the reviewers did not want to devote adequate effort to understanding the film? So they basically "got what they deserved."

Which is to say that, on a certain level, this film is Lynch's own "revenge fantasy" against the critics who had panned his previous efforts.

Which of course begs the question of how much of an effort Diane actually made after reaching Hollywood. Perhaps, like the reviewers, she thought she could just "phone it in" and be successful without making the effort necessary to develop excellence at her craft?
Nov 19, 2001 11:15 AM
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First, just want to say thanks - I have been reading all these great threads about MD and just love hearing everyone's theories, but haven't posted until now.

As you all were discussing the scene with Adam and Betty exchanging looks, I thought of this quote from an interview I read with the actor who played Adam:


Gilroy: So, in that scene when you've just cast the other girl and you turn around and give Betty that longing look and she runs away, does David tell you why you are looking at her then? It's a big plot point.

Theroux: No. He just says, "We're gonna do a really bango big shot, zoom in on her, and than you're gonna look at her, we're gonna zoom in on you, and I'll say, "What's going on?" And he'll say, "You really love her."


The whole article is pretty interesting:
http://indiewire.com/film/production/pro_011107_TherouxGilroy.html


Anyway, my thought always was - in Diane's fantasy, she would be loved by both Adam and Rita - the opposite it was for her in reality. Even though Adam is portrayed as kind of a loser in her dream, she still wanted the attention from him. I think this also explains why Adam rejects his co-worker or assistant on the phone, showing that he could have had others but wasn't interested (I know that theory is a stretch).

Danielle
Nov 19, 2001 1:51 PM
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