4 in 1

Original Poster
Joined: Jul 2002
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****WARNING***TWISTED***MIND***AT***WORK*****

my theory is that Diane/Betty/Camilla/Rita are all one same person.

i havent readproof nor developped this theory, because i didnt get a chance to watch MD again since, so i will propose it to you, and u can tell me if it fits or if it sounds very wrong.

i have several clues that backs up this interpretation:

-mirrors. Betty[Diane] looks at herself when she discover Rita[Camilla] in the shower. and again, Rita looks into the mirror to see Betty. the mirror is where she sees herself, or another personality. this is again in the mirrors that Rita changes hair color, to look alike Betty. they look at eachother in the mirror.

-correct me if i am wrong, but there is not much scenes where Diane and Camilla are together and interacting with someone REAL... even at the party, everything happens like Diane is invisble, people only talk to Camilla...

-Diane/Betty is schizophreniac. and Camilla/Rita is her alter ego (or imaginary friend, all is possible) the point is she exists for Diane only. it starts when Coco visits Diane, but never meet Rita. even if she mention "a stranger", that could be Diane that imagine Coco discovering her imaginary friend. Diane is psychotic, so she believes someone else there.

-oh yes, Diane and Camilla being alternate personalities, Diane switch from one to another, as she see fit, or as the chaos of her personality drives her. so the real person is either Diane or Camilla, and the "imaginary friend" (invisible to everyone else) is the other one.

-soon the mirror is no longer necessary as the imaginary friend is fleshed out.

-the screening of each girl is very awkward, sometimes we feel one is missing, where we expected her. sometimes she really is missing.

-at Sierra Bonita [NOTE:corrected from Havenhurst previously], only Rita talks to the neighbor (Laura DeRosa), Betty is "invisible" and doesnt talk. etc... alternatively, it is Betty (not Rita) who talks to Coco and the neighbor at Havenhurst, keeping Rita (her other personality hidden to the world).
we could define why Diane choses to be herself or Camilla in each situation, when she feels SEXY or NAIVE, and compare with the way the other girl vanishes from the screen. (i need to watch it again)

-the blue box is the lock that links the 2 personalities. it is where the answer to her personality drift (her trueself) is lost, or locked in, prisonner in the subconscious. that is why they are puzzled with this blue box, the existence of each of them depends on the mystery kept secret inside the box. it is around the box that one or the other disapears too.

-Diane and Camilla live the same life, with the same worries and fears, but have 2 different approaches, because of 2 different personality, and 2 different outlook: like the inside beauty, and the outside beauty, that goes along with the self confidence, pride, ego, influence on/by others.


from this assumption i can give another meaning to the scenes:

-the lesbian sex scene is an attempt to fusion the 2 personalities, an ego trip, Diane accepts her 2 sides, or tries to solve her internal conflicts sexualy. this is in actuality a selfpleasuring scene, related to the final scene of masturbation. She fantasies she makes love to herself.

-Diane is not dead, she sees herself dead. she sees herself looking at herself dead (tru Rita). Betty helps Rita to enter, but Rita dares not to enter, and refuses to see death, Diane is not so much shocked by the dead body, because she knows one of her has to die, but the other will live.

-Last but not least: The ugly bum/monster IS Diane (but i prefer to say Camilla). Diane "killed" herself but lost the meaning of her life (fantasy of her hopes and innocence), and didnt accept turning into an asocial bum, UGLY (no more beauty, no more friends, no more love). Camilla had the blue box, and this is the bum who owns this blue box in the end. in makes sense, as it was Diane's body lying dead on the bed. Camilla survived but for the worse. we understand she eventually lost her mind and sanity after this little game of split personality.

-so all ties in 1 character: Diane. and her personality conflicts where mighty forces (social/sexual/love/ego) drive her destiny. those forces are overwhelming, and all the rest of the movie tells about the aspects of these influences that force us to be this or that.

-Lynch picks on Hollywood, but really uses it as a metaphore for the bounds of love, where there is a director (cupid/lover) who select who is in love, who is not/no longer. This is the girl, this is not the girl. i want her, but i cant tell her. i love this one, but i marry this one. there are other superior characters who will make love possible or impossible, shifting roles, manipulating people. this could be society, or even our inner demons (censorship/repression).


well that is about it for now. it kinda makes sense to me this way, all stems from there, and is portrayed under many angles with the same logic.

let me know what you think. ;)
Dec 21, 2002 9:22 AM
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HT,

First of all ... welcome!

There are many, many posts and threads on this subject. You can do a search on the subject (if you haven't already) and find out the opinions of many that have come and gone from this forum.

Your opinion is definitely one that has been hotly debated (and my friend Tristan will love some of your thoughts).

Has in anything so open to interpretation, if it feels right to you - that is all that matters.

By the way, you may want to edit your post so that it is Betty that is talking to the neighbor and Rita does not talk (versus Camilla with Diane not talking). I understand that you need to see the movie again. It is amazing what ideas an additional viewing can offer.

I see things differently simply because of what feels right to me. I don't see Diane dreaming of a made-up alter-ego for herself (Camilla) as well as fantasy visions for both of them (Betty and Rita).

To me, what feels right is that there is a Camilla. One that she can dream about and dream about changing into a pleasant and comfortable, uncomplicated persona that she can love and be loved in return.

I see that (as what happens in dreams) that what we hold to be true eventually invades the dream and messes it up. When we see an awake Diane masturbating and then crying out when she sees a air fan near the wall (in her line of sight) it is her fear that she is just that another fan of Camilla - whose life is on a different level and trajectory.

I also like and enjoy multiple views of the story. I happen to also like an all-dream/fantasy version as well.

At the end of the day, one needs to decide whether Diane's passion/love is around a real person (no matter how dilusionary) or a made-up/pretend love. For me, the real person love has more resonance.
Dec 21, 2002 12:37 PM
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I've said repeatedly I'm flexible and think most intpretations work.

There's much to support this "fragmenting of one person" theory.

There's much visual imagery naturally including the famous [b]Persona [/b] facial juxtaposition.

As one sees Betty & "Rita" go from #12 to #17 we see their feet "marching in step".

The "mirror" scenes interest me because we see 2 mirrors in the bathroom, a main one & facial one to give a "different view." Also, "Rita" reads "Rita Hayworth" off a reflection instead of the movie title character "Gilda" (a more obvious & expected choice--"there never was a girl named Gilda")

The "hall of mirrors" confusion ironically helps a confused "split personality" person (not my "patient" ) by prolonging the illusion. Note Betty's convulsions at Club Silencio (which BTW, look just like ECT convulsions--electro-convulsive therapy, though these days patients are under anathesia and "don't remember a thing"--it's a very "good" treatment IMHO )

There's much Alfred Hitchcock imagery: [b]Rear Window, [/b] [b]Psycho,[/b] [b]Vertigo. [/b] Obviously Kim Novack (sp?) plays and turns out to be 2 merged characters in [b]Vertigo, [/b] a tale of guilt & obsession.

[b]Psycho [/b] also has a shower scene, knife, hidden stolen money, repressed sexual "issues", stumbling into someone's home, dressing up someone with an older woman's clothes (orignial pilot's screenplay. I haven't seen that movie (which starts in Phoenix BTW :eek: ) in a while, but I recall Norman Bates' telephone conversation with his "mother" about the attractive blonde stranger in the next room (with whom he shared a meal, was sexually aroused by a shower & bed scene, etc).

I find Betty the constant "actress" filled with "horse pucky" spinning ever-growing tales growing like Pinnochio's, uhh nose. She invents a fantasy world where she can talks with "Aunt Ruth" ("ain't Truth") that people like Coco can see through. Coco is played by Ann Miller, a jitter-bug era dancer who knows it probably was "Aunt Ruth" or some maternal figure of Diane/Betty/Camilla/"Rita"/et-al that really won the (mythic) contest.

As D/B/C/"R"/et-al's world collapses into a confusing merged mess (in reality, or in someone-else's dream, in someone-else's movie about dreams, or in "your" interpretation of someone-else's movie about dreams, or in "our" interpretation of someone-else's movie about dreams, etc.) she goes nuts

as in "Coco-nuts"

or "she goes buggy"

as in "So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy and you fix your attitude and you can ride along with me."

as in "let's just say I'm drivin' us buggy"
Dec 21, 2002 2:37 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by ctyankee
You can do a search on the subject (if you haven't already)[/QUOTE]

yes i thought so, but as i only arrive on this forum and have hard time keeping up with the few on going threads i didnt bother searching for similar theory in this endless source of materials. ;)
i hoped someone who knows around would direct me to the threads where this is already debated. maybe could u tell me under what "title" this theory is commonly accepted.

and sorry for the typo, i edited. like i said they are all the same to me
i am going to watch it in a theatre this week for sure.

[QUOTE]To me, what feels right is that there is a Camilla. One that she can dream about and dream about changing into a pleasant and comfortable, uncomplicated persona that she can love and be loved in return.
I see that (as what happens in dreams) that what we hold to be true eventually invades the dream and messes it up.
[/QUOTE]

if u consider the "dream" part only, this consideration is very much accurate. because it really acts like the sweetened/enhanced version of reality. but my main point is Lynch's dreams are not of this kind. (see Twin Peaks vs Lost Highway) the obsessed "dreams" of Laura Palmer (which are of a complete different nature of course: rape/incest) show really a (lynchian) dream world, with symbols, funny creatures, alteration of perception, funny sounds and voices, limbo places...

here in MD, the dwarf-master and the cowboy seem like disconnected to Diane herself, and portrays higher, distant forces, not something that she lives out and feels disturbed about. why actual dream materials are connected to Adam and not Diane?

the only material that could be dream material to Diane (and Camilla -who appear as Betty and Rita-) is the club Silencio. Although, this place is a show: they are seated, watch and learn (like in class), there is really a distance between the darkness where they hide passively like anonymous voyeur, and the scene where the "dream world" express alteration of reality. which message is actually very universal, not directly answering the intimate questions of Diane/Betty.

it appears more like a class of Lynch about the fakeness of cinema in particular, and the distance you need to keep between what is reality and what you perceive and feel. (another debate...)

but diane is not transported, captured, dominated by the "dream" here, she is just puzzled by more questions and feelings...
back in the "reality" part, diane is not refering to her "dreams", she is not affected by them, it is like they never existed (the only transition being the fantasies of her masturbation... like if all this was only a sexual fantasy moment)

i say lynchian dreams are much more than this, like Laura Palmer seeing inexistant creatures, actualy talking to them, she hear voices, and this world haunts her in the real world too. and the dream world keeps running after her to catch her, disturbing her behavior in the real world.

[QUOTE]At the end of the day, one needs to decide whether Diane's passion/love is around a real person (no matter how dilusionary) or a made-up/pretend love. For me, the real person love has more resonance. [/QUOTE]

this is another deep debate. but i dont think the differentiation is such a clash here. interpretation of the split personality can go either way.
Diane's love can be real. and the fact that she throw it back to herself (masturbation/split personality/role playing) doesnt mean she dreams it up, or that she is egotist.
if u think about it, Diane is pretty much alone in this journey, emotionally. the only caracters she meets are strangers she never met, and who have slim contact with her, and do not affect/orientate her life (like love does).
Camilla is her only companion/lover all throughout the movie. the only one that really talk to her! the only one that affects and move her.
who is Camilla? she doesnt even know who she is... she comes from nowhere, out of the blue, with an unbelievable (mythomaniac) story!
and again, nobody knows Camilla, it is like she was never there (the scene at HavenHurst) she has no root in reality. the only piece of her life is in Adam's party, where she mostly ignore Diane! (like if Diane looking at an actress among the guests, fantasies she knows her, or portrays her has her "imaginary lover" (common repressed love syndroma).

IMHO, Lynch portrays here the complex mechanism of self esteem/love desire that builds up personality in the inside, where feelings mix up together, pride, pain, desire, frustration, love, not-being-loved. all sorts of contradictory, innocent, unstable vital forces that drive someone's life and eventualy leads to internal conflict.

using the schyzophreniac syndroma, Lynch gets into the very core of personality, where you believe who you are , what you want, and what you do, which simply collapses the second you doubt it. and Love is this incredible thing that threaten your own self.
Lynch gets to the roots of love, not the outlook of loving feelings behavior and images, but deeper inside where it hurts and grasp your whole essence, the moment you abandon yourself to a foreign entity, wholeheartedly...

so Camilla may or may not have ever existed, but the images we see in this movies are not real, they are the story of Diane's journey to hell caused by an intimate love disorder (maybe this girl she met once at the party, maybe an actress in a casting, maybe a girl she fell for at first sight but never talked to...)

what i mean is my theory is not about stupid egotist love to herself, but the complex feeling of how she feels loved by others, by her "charming prince" (who is a girl), by society.
Dec 21, 2002 10:22 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by unc84steve
[B]There's much Alfred Hitchcock imagery: [b]Rear Window, [/b] [b]Psycho,[/b] [b]Vertigo. [/b] Obviously Kim Novack (sp?) plays and turns out to be 2 merged characters in [b]Vertigo, [/b] a tale of guilt & obsession.

Psycho [/b] also has a shower scene, knife, hidden stolen money, repressed sexual "issues", stumbling into someone's home, dressing up someone with an older woman's clothes (orignial pilot's screenplay. I haven't seen that movie (which starts in Phoenix BTW :eek: ) in a while, but I recall Norman Bates' telephone conversation with his "mother" about the attractive blonde stranger in the next room (with whom he shared a meal, was sexually aroused by a shower & bed scene, etc) [/QUOTE]


interesting examples
i forgot to mention other references :

-in Fight Club, the pair of main characters are one and same person, but Fincher reveals eventually that Tyler Durden is a split personality of E.Norton (name?), who will makes himself believe he commits suicide (like Diane) to solve his schizophrenia conflict (in a very ridiculous happy-ending way, hardly credible! )
nontheless, the director fools the audience all the way with this alter ego, even the supporting actors are confused and do not help us to see truth. because the both personalities address to the people consistantly with appropriate "outlook" (only the audience sees the 2 different actors).

-Brazil (yeah that is where i come from ). part of the movie is between dreams and reality, didnt anything happen outside of Sam Lawry's head? the subject is 'gone' crazy and his delirium creates a whole new world of fantasy where his unreturned love becomes true, she is not dead anymore either, he "pulls the strings" and fight against a lot of pressure from the outside in order to escape and live a quiet love outside of society/work/mother/bosses...
Lawry is not practicaly splitting personality, but creates doubles of himself (more valient and successful and seductive), and her muse (who loves him, obeys, cares). and he plans to "kill" her (althought she got killed by the bureaucracy failure he hates) and reverse the system in his favor, so he can own her ever after (in the afterlife).
Dec 22, 2002 9:46 AM
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i havent found any relevant posts about the anima described by Jung, and it seems to fit my theory so i will present this new angle here.

first i want to clarify my theory (which other people share though), it is all very blury to me yet, but i've got a strong feeling that it really makes sense, so i will seek and try to find concrete evidences of this interpretation in the movie and see if everything fits...
meanwhile it doesnt negate the "dream theory", the "hitman theory"... which are on a different level of understanding.

MD is constituted of a bunch of layers overlaping, half see-through sheets of paper where reality prints in different language, here is my suggestion of structural construction of the movie:

> 1st degree (screenplay)- a young unsuccessful actress, an amnesiac seeking identity, a director who lose control, an unknown dead body. BREAK. a waitress who lost her illusions, and contracts a hitman. a suicide.

this makes little sense, and requires a follow up (sequel) to understand the narration gaps. But MD contains the answers within itself, so a re-reading will reveal another level of understanding, deeper in the mystery.

> 2nd degree (dream)- Betty is Diane's fantasied image, likewise Rita is Camilla's fantasied image, in Diane's dreamt up reality. so the movie is a mirror of reality and dream of the same events.

> 3rd degree (DeRosa) picked somewhere on this forum - DeRosa is actually Diane's partner more than was ever Camilla, so Diane transfer her relationship with the "girl next-door" onto a rich glamourous actress. so most of the movie is like if Diane tell us (or herself) a beautiful story, exagerating reality with emphasis and mythomania. she tells us about her dream.

> 4th degree (Dan)- Dan is obsessed by a vision of a monster (the censorship of subconscious: expression of a repression, of a terrible truth that cannot be worded) and introduce us to his demons impersonated by (his anima) Diane's life (where all are 1 person: D/B/C/R the multiple aspects of his inner conflicts dealing with theorical studies of desir/repressed love/wish to kill/social oppression...) we look into Dan's (Diane i guess someone already noticed that ;)) analysis.

> 5th degree (Lynch)- Lynch uses this movie to express his fears and disapointement about movie illusions in particular, and about love subconscious feelings in general. like steve noted, he writes to relieve himself, and encrypt it with dream symbols, by a transfer of himself into Dan, and Adam.

> 6th degree (Jung)- all belongs to the collective subconscious that even escapes Lynch's awareness, unintended symbols, freudian slips, non-rational development, dreamy stuff visions (his springing ideas that feed his work=emotional inspiration), and the decoding of this teach us about each and all of us, because those fears, demons, desir, taboos work the same for everyone.

so we can interpretate symbols that belong to each level, relevant to each purpose of the specific level. and for instance to interpretate 'wild' symbols that Lynch didnt create willingly is not relevant to MD, but to human kind in general (6th degree). and to stop at level 1 is to refuse to see the hidden meaning of things, Lynch manipulate reality to drive our curiosity in places we are scared of...
Dec 22, 2002 10:37 AM
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i wonder if MD is actually a study of the anima concept of Jung, by David Lynch. the similarities are disturbing and make sense as a starting point to understand how the story is structured.

so Dan is telling his story and describes the influence of this "monster behind the wall". "A Man under the influence" to paraphrase Cassavetes ;)
Diane is Dan's anima. and i would go futher by guessing, Adam (a Dan) is the fantaziesed version of himself (animus?), in the dreamworld of hollywood, but where he struggles to drive his own movie/life.
it is important to compare Dan's confession, with Adam's journey bumping into walls, and seeking for answers, enlighted by the cowboy (maybe a mix of Herb, his psychoanalyst, and his conscience)


anima defined by Jung

Jung used the term "anima" to refer to the repressed, unconscious female aspects of a mans personality.
Jung used the word 'anima' to refer to the sum total of all these parts of the man's psyche that are considered in some way female and which are therefore repressed.
As women are typically more free of such things, men associate serene mental states with being a woman. When a man wishes to be "a woman"--he may partly be wishing to experience these more spiritual states of mind.
Naturally, these impulses and potentials cannot be denied forever. They emerge partly, and in disguised form so as to elude the mechanisms of repression. For example, a boy may dream that he is a girl. And in dreams he may experience the totality of all these repressed thoughts and feelings.

Perhaps the repression of these tendencies produces a form of "arrested development." These impulses linger in a state of continual half-activation, never fully on, but unable to be turned off until they are expressed.
The usual dynamic is that the male eventually projects his repressed female side onto women in his life. Part of his attraction to women is that they display (or he imagines they do) some of his own female traits which he cannot let himself express. He experiences his own anima vicariously through his female partners and other women.

But these women have their own identities. They are who they are, not the man's projection. When a man projects his anima onto them, he is not seeing them as they really are, and he creates false expectations for them. That is bound to cause problems.

which explains why Diane splits into several conflicting personalities.
-the inner self traped inside terrified (Dan)
-the man's anima, investigator, innocent, naive, pure (Diane)
-the woman's own independant personality, moody, mysterious, angry, anti-man (Betty)
-the ideal woman fantasied by men, attractive, sexual, without identity, without memory, talking few (Camilla)
opposed to:
-the unbearable materiality of the loved one, with flaws and conflicts (DeRosa)



Dialogue with anima: Dan's movie.

"Each time that a being is plunged in a distressing dilemma, it addresses, high or low, with itself the question (who else could?) "What can i do?" and it is even given the answer (who else could?).
All the art of this intimate dialogue consists in letting speak, to let the invisible partner reach the "wording", to temporarily devote to it the mechanisms of the expression, without to let us be overpowered by the dislike that we naturally feel with ourselves during this procedure which seems a play of an unbounded nonsense, and without succumbing either to the doubts which attack us about the "authenticity" of the words from the interior interlocutor"

The anima in films


~to be continued~
Dec 22, 2002 11:47 AM
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[QUOTE]The anima is the personification of all the psychological feminine tendencies of the man's psyché like feelings, vague mood, prophethic intuitions, sensitivity to irrational, ability to self love, feeling of nature, and the relations with the subconscious.

it is a way the man refer to himself toward his people, hiding it from everybody, himself included. the expression of a man's anima is incomprehensible to women. it represents certain desirs and expectations. that is why the man transfer these expectations on a woman being, he assumes this woman has (his) expectations, un-returned expectations, desir, wait. this anima projected refers to a system of (erotic) relationship.
whereas the animus (the male side in women) is completely different for women, it is a system of understanding, an intellectual problem.

The anima also symbolizes a fanciful dream of love, happiness, motherly warmth (nest), a dream that pulls man to turn his back to reality. the hunter drowns because he ran after a fantasy created by a desir that cannot be fullfilled.

Another negative manifestation of the anima in the masculine personality is the propensity for cutting, venimous, girlish comments that depreciate eveything. Those kind of comments are based on a distorsion of reality, and is subtly destructing.[/QUOTE]

if we consider the whole movie being Dan's psychoanalysis, to unlock the mystery of this "monster behind the wall". Adam being the way he portrays himself manly (animus), struggling to tell his story (to spell out the repressed frustrations) symbolized by the movie direction getting out of hand.
Adam also loves a woman (Camilla?), but never shows his feelings, and struggles to show off his expected manly behavior: yelling in vain at the meeting, smashing the car and running like a kid, his reaction when his wife is busted cheating on him...

now imagine that Diane is Adam's anima. (they never really interact, it is like she is invisible) she is always lurking in his back, watching over his head, like a strange complicity. they sometimes exchange looks, like if they understand each others.
So Diane is the (repressed) feminine side of Adam, and loves Camilla as well, in a feminine way (a way Adam cannot express openly because of the social morale).

Adam's anima has a life of her own, like a double inside Adam's mind, and just like Dan, creates a dream world where she can love Camilla the way she wants. so what we see of Diane's life is Adam who lives his life (in his subconscious) as a woman, facing the same problems (beloved one cheating, social pressure, fences at work, search for identity) loss of Camilla, success pressure from parents, manipulation in casting, questioning what all is this about.
Adam put himself, trough the life of his anima, in the shoes of a young actress victim of the hollywood system, because he feels guilty about it (he hides), and his subconscious makes him experience the shame his work produce (the cowboy).


random rambling:

Diane's plan to kill Camilla is just a wish of his subconscious (like an oedipian dynamics), that is why Camilla is not dead, the subconscious spend more time in creating a hitman, and complex process, with unspoken conditions, than to see actual injuries onto Camilla.

The body Diane and Camilla see in her place is Adam's subconscious who fears the reaction of Camilla looking inside (break into) his mind, and see his anima is gone (dead). Diane is dazed, and see it is not an option to disappear and let Adam (animus) takeover in the realtionship.


ok my scheme is not complete, and sometimes contradictory, but i am trying to put the pieces together...
-i know it sounds a hell of complexity, why not, Lynch is capable of this.
i am getting somewhere yet?
Dec 23, 2002 2:50 AM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by unc84steve

There's much Alfred Hitchcock imagery: [b]Rear Window, [/b] [b]Psycho,[/b] [b]Vertigo. [/b] Obviously Kim Novack (sp?) plays and turns out to be 2 merged characters in [b]Vertigo, [/b] a tale of guilt & obsession.

Psycho [/b] also has a shower scene, knife, hidden stolen money, repressed sexual "issues", stumbling into someone's home, dressing up someone with an older woman's clothes (orignial pilot's screenplay. I haven't seen that movie (which starts in Phoenix BTW :eek: ) in a while, but I recall Norman Bates' telephone conversation with his "mother" about the attractive blonde stranger in the next room (with whom he shared a meal, was sexually aroused by a shower & bed scene, etc).
[/QUOTE]

The Psycho link to hidden stolen money is an interesting thought. However, what knife are you referring to in MD?

No one has posted anything of substance around any link to Rear Window. What specific imagery are you referring to?
Dec 23, 2002 6:49 AM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by HarryTuttle
yes i thought so, but as i only arrive on this forum and have hard time keeping up with the few on going threads i didnt bother searching for similar theory in this endless source of materials. ;)
i hoped someone who knows around would direct me to the threads where this is already debated. maybe could u tell me under what "title" this theory is commonly accepted.

and sorry for the typo, i edited. like i said they are all the same to me
i am going to watch it in a theatre this week for sure.



if u consider the "dream" part only, this consideration is very much accurate. because it really acts like the sweetened/enhanced version of reality. but my main point is Lynch's dreams are not of this kind. (see Twin Peaks vs Lost Highway) the obsessed "dreams" of Laura Palmer (which are of a complete different nature of course: rape/incest) show really a (lynchian) dream world, with symbols, funny creatures, alteration of perception, funny sounds and voices, limbo places...

here in MD, the dwarf-master and the cowboy seem like disconnected to Diane herself, and portrays higher, distant forces, not something that she lives out and feels disturbed about. why actual dream materials are connected to Adam and not Diane?

the only material that could be dream material to Diane (and Camilla) is the club Silencio. Although, this place is a show: they are seated, watch and learn (like in class), there is really a distance between the darkness where they hide passively like anonymous voyeur, and the scene where the "dream world" express alteration of reality. which message is actually very universal, not directly answering the intimate questions of Diane/Betty.

it appears more like a class of Lynch about the fakeness of cinema in particular, and the distance you need to keep between what is reality and what you perceive and feel. (another debate...)

snip
[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately, there is little discipline regarding keeping on topic in the threads in this forum. Therefore, an interesting discussion around dreams and Adam, for example, might pop up in a thread around something else.

However, you could use the search button and select Rear AND Window (for example) as the search criteria and then do a search limited to the Mulholland Drive forum and thereby narrowing down the posts/threads to check. The return search will be Mulholland Drive forum posts where the user used the term 'Rear Window'.

Glad you're seeing the movie again. It is still Rita and Betty who have the experience in Club Silencio. It may seem rigid but knowing this stuff reflects on the writer. We all mess them up from time to time ... even those of us who have the benefit of having the DVD.

Yes, the subject of fakeness in cinema is an interesting one. I've thought of making it a thread but wanted people to have the opportunity to watch Contempt (Le Mepris) first. It was just released on a DVD in the U.S. You are more likely to have a familiarity with Godard work already, I would imagine.

Btw, have you seen Tati's Mon Oncle?
Dec 23, 2002 7:50 AM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by ctyankee
However, you could use the search button and select Rear AND Window (for example) as the search criteria and then do a search limited to the Mulholland Drive forum and thereby narrowing down the posts/threads to check. The return search will be Mulholland Drive forum posts where the user used the term 'Rear Window'.

Yes, the subject of fakeness in cinema is an interesting one. I've thought of making it a thread but wanted people to have the opportunity to watch Contempt (Le Mepris) first. It was just released on a DVD in the U.S. You are more likely to have a familiarity with Godard work already, I would imagine.

Btw, have you seen Tati's Mon Oncle?
[/QUOTE]

i used the "search forum" for a couple subjects, and there is so much threads i want to read, to catch up on has been discussed here, and to learn more POV and details i missed.

i's been a year i saw the movie... :eek: the threads i read help me to remember and i still can see the pictures in my head. but i need to watch it again with my new theories in hand.


i would be happy if u start this thread about the fakeness of cinema, with the silencio alegory, and the unique way Lynch has to treat the audience and infringe successfuly the standards to tear them apart. ;)
i know i am terrible i should know Le Mépris... but i've seen very little of Godard (A bout de souffle...). unfortunately i came across the recent work of his and got very much desapointed by the master

and yeah i know Tati's Mon Oncle did u like it? if so, i suggest you Les Vacances de Mr Hulot, Playtime, Trafic, Jour de Fête... all very funny.

btw, are you spanish or is it a quote from a movie in your sig?
Me parece que Almodovar es el Lynch de españa, en una manera màs "movida"!
Dec 23, 2002 8:59 AM
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I will say that I use spanish in much the same way that David Lynch uses it in Mulholland Drive. It is a movie-related reference. I'm interested to see who gets my reference first so I can't tell you more than that.

However, I'm an American living near New York City and I do not speak spanish (unfortunately).

If you become really interested in getting into Mulholland Drive, Le Mépris is much more than a simple homage within MD, it is required viewing.

Yes, I did enjoy Mon Oncle. I had read that Lynch did a homage to Mon Oncle in MD. The same one he uses in Wild At Heart. After viewing the film, it is somewhat more than just that. And would make another interesting thread.

I also am inclined to believe that Tati has influenced Lynch as a director. But, as I have only seen one Tati film (until this point) my opinion isn't worth much. I definitely want to see some more of his films.

Joyeux Noël
Dec 23, 2002 10:05 AM
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i dont know, this quote sounds familiar... is it a spanish spoken movie??? i'd thought italian? obviously a writer who likes cinema and makes a wink at old (american) movies. sounds like a Woody Allen punch line i know i heard it! but where...? :eek: can we get hints?
is it not Almodovar? Kika?

i didnt know Le Mépris was an influence in MD... i want to see Brigitte Bardot :p

What is the link between Mon oncle and MD? i confess i dont see it. very long time i have seen it, way before MD.

i dont know how Tati influenced Lynch, he has absorbed so well the cinema history and technic to make them his own, that it is hard to tell, except for the winks he makes to refer to his "fathers".
Tati is a comedy director and actor. he was certainly very inventive and an outsider in his time, but very popular on TV. he had this absurd distance to reality, that let him create unexpected hilarious situations. He was a visionary too and caught the trends of modernism to ridicule it, before it was overwhelming our society.
Dec 23, 2002 10:40 AM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by HarryTuttle
i dont know, this quote sounds familiar... is it a spanish spoken movie??? i'd thought italian? obviously a writer who likes cinema and makes a wink at old (american) movies. sounds like a Woody Allen punch line i know i heard it! but where...? :eek: can we get hints?
is it not Almodovar? Kika?
[/QUOTE]

hey! that is misleading! it is a french movie
;) duh me!

the original quote:
" J'aime bien me retrouver dans le noir au cinéma et être la seule à voir le petit détail? Je n'aime pas sur les vieux films américains quand le conducteur ne regarde pas la route. "


Feliz Navidad! ;)
Dec 23, 2002 10:46 AM
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[size=4][color=blue]Très bon. Nous avons un champion![/size][/color]

I'll start a thread on Mon Oncle after Christmas.

Buon Natale,

ctyankee

Ou est-ce que je devrais avoir Portugese choisi en l'honneur de votre référence du Brésil?
Dec 24, 2002 5:54 AM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by ctyankee
[size=4][color=blue]Très bon. Nous avons un champion![/size][/color]I'll start a thread on Mon Oncle after Christmas.
Buon Natale,
ctyankee
Ou est-ce que je devrais avoir Portugese choisi en l'honneur de votre référence du Brésil?
[/QUOTE]

thanks i am ashamed i didnt figure it out right away... Amelie is my favorite movie of year 2000! i guess i watch too many movies...

nah, i am not portugese and cant read it.
i meant my login nickname comes from the movie "Brazil", played by Bob DeNiro.
Dec 24, 2002 12:10 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by ctyankee
The Psycho link to hidden stolen money is an interesting thought. However, what knife are you referring to in MD?

No one has posted anything of substance around any link to Rear Window. What specific imagery are you referring to?
[/QUOTE]

i hope steve wont mind if i reply to this one ;)

When Betty and Rita rehurse a part for Betty's audition, Betty has a knife in hand, pointed at Rita in a very violent way. the scene is not the one she will actually play at the audition. is it only for the show? is it just cinema? or the expression of an already hidden jealousy?

to pick this particular scene was an intentional message both from Betty (to tell Rita something: "playing" at murder and laughing about it afterward in an intense love-hate scene, before unspoken pain drives her to achieve this avowed "wish"), and from Lynch who gives us another wink at a classic reference (is it Psycho?)


i dont know what steve has in mind with Rear Window's imagery. but it sounded obvious to me. it is maybe not a direct relation, but IMHO i see the murder scene investigation in Rear Window (all the fantasy projected on these people he observes secretly, and that will drive him to convince other people that what is in his imagination is true), very much similar to the process of Diane's dreams: she imagines lots of fancy things happening to people she only glanced at in reality, and mix up imagination with reality, when dreams catch up on life and things get bad.
James Stewart, runs 2 lives in parallel, that he avoids to let interact, with a couple of lies to his relatives, and staying hidden from his neighbors. but soon the fantasy build up so much, and scares him so much that his control over it fails and threaten to destroy his social life.
Contrary to Lynch, Hitchcock gives an happy ending.

Metaphoricaly, we could say MD is all about diane sitting at the window (in a situation where she is helpless, unable to move) and telling us what she sees. the audience has to sort out her story and figure what was real and what she made up.
Dec 24, 2002 12:51 PM
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it is amazing how Lynch can give us so many clues, and still get us confused about the overall meaning. most of the clues are doubled or more, emphasised all throughout the movie.
maybe the overwhelming load of clues of all sorts: chronological clues, identification clues, dream clues, reality clues, feelings clues, foreboding clues, subconscious clues, traduction clues...

i think Lynch makes a point about the way hollywood films are so redundant about the narration plot and so predictible because they dont want to lose anybody of the wide audience target along the way: explainatory timeline, emphasis of people's feeling about a situation (actor's studio), unecessary "subtitles" to define a place or a character or a moment, close up shots on blatant clues, with striking music hints, jump scenes to scare the audience with adrenaline rush at a given point with minimal plot effort...

and i am surprised so many people watching MD, for such a long time, cannot give one 100% certain interpretation, since always few elements dont fit, despite the clues DL gave afterward, and the now wellknown basic information...:eek:
Dec 27, 2002 6:26 PM
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after my recent viewing of the movie, i have to give up on some of my assumptions.

-the anima theory, however seducing, and very lynchian, doesnt fit the primary plot. not enough clues going this way, too many contradictory clues.
but since steve assumes Lynch impersonates Diane through Dan (gender-smooth transfer), the anima theory could reveal itself interesting on the analysis level. but definitely not on the story level.

so Diane is not Adam. but i keep thinking, Rita and Betty are Diane, and so many clues can be read saying it. in fact i think diane in her dream, while trying in vain to pretend she is Rita and have her act the way she likes, gradualy convince herself that she is fooling herself, through the voices of other characters of her dream (especially as soon as Betty meets Rita):

-Rita is amnesiac, how convenient! Betty does the talking, and present the characters: "i am Betty, you must be Aunt Ruth's friend, blahblahblah". Rita do not aknowledge her presence in Diane's dream, and gives a name the audience knows is fake right away. She feels unconfortable with Betty talking, and prefers to sleep, confused and dizzy.

-although Betty offers to call a doctor and the police (which was obviously necessary and Rita has no reason to hide from the authorities), Rita refuses. only Diane has reasons to keep Rita hidden and away from the police. "The girl is missing".
(we could develop on why diane makes each line spoken by either Betty or Rita in her dream, to reveal the intent of her mascarade... we'll get to that later on)

-"There was an accident" [Rita]: things got mixed up.
-"That is wrong there was an accident, she [aunt Ruth] said someone was hurt" [Ruth's friend at Havenhurst] Betty denies and hides Rita!
-"what you're saying is a bunch of horse-pucky": you are not being honest with yourself Diane.
-"I wonder where you were going in that limo" [Betty]: why did u drive me to do that?
-"i dont know who i am (sobs)" [Rita]
Rita confess that her name is wrong and she ignores her identity. then she will be nameless till the end of the dream! she disappears before to know who she is! (the audience only assumes she was Camilla!)
-"it is strange to be calling yourself" [Betty]
-"Maybe she is not me" [Rita] (note Rita[=Diane] disapprovement to search for her identity, and Betty's entousiasm)
-"This is not my voice!" [Rita]
-"We'll pretend we are someone else, like in the movies." [Betty]
-"if she is not you she can certainly tell you who you are" [Betty] Diane knows that only Diane Selwyn lives at Sierra Bonita. and DeRosa DO NOT RECOGNIZE either Betty or Rita, although she obviously knows Diane and Camilla!




shots where Lynch is trying to tell us that diane dream is not reality and that what we see is only Diane delirium where she plays both Betty and Rita:

-after seeing Diane dead body at Sierra Bonita, Rita, followed by Betty rushes out of apt. #17! the picture is strobbing, the 2 heads mutltiply and merge!

-another i cited and developped in another post: When Diane making coffee in a shabby robe, has an etheral vision of Camilla, Diane chages position and take "Camilla"'s place on the screen in the reverse shot looking the other way. overimpression of diane and Camilla in a apparently continuous action.
Diane is actually contemplating herself as Camilla.

-when Rita cuts her hair: Betty does it!
-"i know what you are doing, let me do it": Betty wants Rita to change and be more like her: hair short like her, blond like her!
Dec 27, 2002 7:19 PM
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Rita becomes blond after she sees the corpse. is it a forebodying of her death or of Diane's suicide?

my guess si that Betty controls her mind by them: symbol of the wig being her color, covering rita's Head (we could develop on the symbol of women's hair and the impact of their color change for their image: blonde/brunette, good/bad girl...)

that is why Betty asks Rita to take off her wig, before the bed sex scene. she wants Camilla, not the Rita-duplicate of herself.

later on Rita wears the wig again, to got to the Silencio! (means that she only took off the wig for the sex scene) and Betty controls Rita's mind again: they are into Diane's Mind (=Club Silencio)
Dec 27, 2002 11:53 PM
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