It's David Lynch's Dream analysis & more!

Original Poster
Joined: Dec 2002
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(Exhales)

I came here for a good discussion & to present my new, big-deal theory about this movie we all know & love. For the sake of ease (mine), I'll copy posts I originally put on the Internet Movie Database.

So here goes something--maybe I'll recopy the responses too. I'm not sure yet what will work best.

Here is the first link:

I think it's David Lynch's dream interpetation too
Dec 18, 2002 6:52 PM
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Here was the first post I think it's David Lynch's dream interpetation too:

Link to original IMDb post

Simon (simling55) told me to come here (nice opening line ;)).

I'm a psychiatrist who got introductory training in psychoanalytic theory including dream interpretation. I spent a couple years in analysis but didn't complete it.

Psychoanalysts are verbose & non-committal. They'd claim the mind is complex and events are multi-determined. Cynics would note they get work by the hour usually in cash (around $50,000 per year in Hollywood, hmmm [roll] ).

Dream analysis ideally uses the patient's free associations--not on a universal dream symbol decoder book. However, a good therapist who knows the patient case will make better interpretations; they "resonate." Symbols can represent multiple things ("over-determined") or their opposites. Skeptics say psychoanalysis is like a religious faith that cannot be disproved; adherents say "so what?"

I "believe" the standard dream story plot of Diane's "real world" mess getting re-worked into an idealized replay as "Betty." I also believe that David Lynch is working through his own therapy issues in this movie. This additional hypothesis rings so true, I hope it helps others make sense of this rich movie in the same way these threads have made me less annoyed than I was initially. (please see my recent review).

I'll make a series of posts here for readability (and so the computer won't lose them ;))
Dec 18, 2002 7:01 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by TristanLove
Hey please copy and paste them all here! [/QUOTE]
Be patient, they're coming!

LOL

Geez, you all sound starved for new ideas!

(Careful what you wish for)

hehehheheheheh
Dec 18, 2002 7:03 PM
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(Note: Since making this original post, I have picked up many more alternative meanings here, so don't think I'm stuck in Dan is only a stand-in for David Lynch in therapy & the whold movie is about this.

Far from it. This is one entry point, but a "key one" If you allow yourself this interpretation--at least as a working model, then many more things will fall into place.)

Link to original IMDb post

Dan at Winkie's (Sunset Blvd) = David Lynch

Little doubt about this one. Look at David Lynch's 10 Clues (BTW: I'm new here and am clueless about getting to archived threads that I'm sure discuss older threads on the clues)[quote]At least two clues are revealed before the credits:[/quote](He didn't say "just two" ;)) After the pillow dream cue, we see the street sign "Mulholland Dr." with matching font titles--a straight homage to "Sunset Blvd." (openning curbside stencil "Sunset Blvd.")

Rita "accidently" finds an empty room near Sunset (clue: where is Aunt Ruth?) similar to Billy Wilder's plot. Soon we cut to . . .[quote]Winkie's Sunset Blvd[/quote]Dan (certainly David Lynch in therapy: I just wanted to come here.
Herb (Therapist): To Winkie's?
Dan: This Winkies's
Herb: Okay, why this Winkie's?
Dan: It's kind of embarrassing.
Herb: Go ahead.
Dan: I had a dream about this place.
Herb: Oh boy
Dan: See what I mean
Therapist So you had a dream about this place, tell me

"This Winkies's" is Sunset Blvd, the "Boulevard of broken dreams" (also Hollywood) where young idealists from the "North Woods" (the "Sylvia North Story") get used, forgotten or worse. Herb seems to know this plot (dreams, Hollywood, Winking homage to Sunset Blvd).

"Oh boy" also means "you are just a boy" and "Go ahead" means "go ahead with your life by confronting those demons" (from the past).

Dan: . . . And I'm scared like I can't tell you. Of all people, you're standing right over there [looks behind shoulder], by that counter. You're in both dreams. I get even more scared when I see how scared you are and then I realize what it is, there's a man in back of this place, creating this fear. He's the one that's doing it. I can see him through the wall. I can see his face. I hope that I will never have to see that face ever outside of a dream. That's it.

This reminds me of the classic analytic position & relationsip. A scared patient still is supposed to "tell you" because it's just words; nothing bad is going to happen. The therapist is behind the patient's shoulder where he can see the patient but the patient can't see the analyst (only walls & the ceiling--like Diane later). "By that counter" means "counter-transferrence" or the distortions the therapist projects onto the patient because of the therapist's own neuroses.

Dan discusses how his fears & his therapist's build each other. A patient might be scared that his therapist is losing control of a dangerous situation. Dan's smile belies his delight in generating fear & insecurity in "Herb" (incompetent name?) the expert, adult-figure.

"I hope that I will never..." Whoa!! Here's a "spontaneous negation" let's try without the negative and see how that flies. Maybe Dan wants to see that face. We'll see.

Herb: So you came to see if he's out there.

(Well that was easy :rolleyes: )

Dan: To get rid of this God-awful feeling
Herb: Right then (walks to cash register)
Dan: (silently looks, uhh do you really understand what I'm saying?)

Actually I hear Herb as completing Dan's line this way:

Dan: To get rid of this God-awful feeling, (I should)
Herb: Write then (Write your movies & work out your demons including your "dreams")

The movie then makes a transition from a "realer world" (partially eaten food on table) to a "dreamier world" (table immediately cleaned--or a world without mundane details).

A fine time to break until next post.
Dec 18, 2002 7:32 PM
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(NOTE: in psycho-analysis, free-association links apparently divergent events, but there usually is meaning. Thus I will continue with the threads original order which took a "detour", but that was "cool".

Here's a reply by Simon to "Dan at Winkie's (Sunset Blvd) = David Lynch":

Link to IMDb link

Hey, at last someone attuned to the symbolism. This is very thought provoking and plausible.

But I wonder if Lynch does this consciously. He claims he tries to give up control to his intuitive instincts when directing. Perhaps that is where is vision lies - he is so in touch with his intuitive faculties.

Most directors trying to pull off a scene with all these psychological references would lose the tension, but this was one of the most ominous, gripping and disturbing scenes I have ever seen in the movies.

Of course we are in the North Woods again. She is even called Betty ELMS! We are deep in Hansel and Gretel country, hard by Twin Peaks.
The dream element goes even deeper than we might think. Diane dreams of herself as Betty. She creates a new Camilla. This Camilla sleeps outside Aunt Ruth's and dreams of detectives. Under the kitchen table she dreams again of breakfast at Winkie's. The monster manifests from the dream of Dan who has himself been dreamed by a dreamer who has been dreamed. This is dreams inside dreams - the labyrinth of the Minotaur. This is an extraordinary evocation of Maya.

Then Camilla sleeps again inside Aunt Ruth's and dreams of killings and boardroom meetings and a dwarf who controls everything. Between these scenes the camera flies above Hollywood like a dreamer itself. Of course all this is the dream of Diane - both dreamer and dreamed.

In the TV pilot when Camilla comes down from Mulholland after the accident and crosses over Sunset, Lynch even plays some of the theme from "Sunset Boulevard".

By the way I keep trying to figure out the source for the name Camilla Rhodes. There is a famous vampire novel where the female vamp switches identities between Camilla and Mircalla (anagram) - but Rhodes??? The Greek Island maybe - what happened there apart from the Colossus?

Or is it some play on camino (spanish) and road? Symbolism of cammelias?

All the most meaningful artists do their therapy through their work. The closer they get to the heart of darkness, the greater the work. After all, it's the dragon who guards the treasure.
Dec 18, 2002 7:41 PM
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Note: so now I responded to Simon's question.

Link to IMDb post

Is it done consciously?

Simon asks (if I may call him that instead of "simling55"--call me "Steve") "if Lynch does this consciously?"

That's a zillion dollar question.

As a practical, eclectic psychiatrist (collect multiple tools, try to appropriately use the best approach for the job), I find facts help answer questions like that. If David Lynch were in fact in psychoanalytic therapy, I'd be certain he's consciously aware of the symbols: plot, characters, names, dialog, shot-composition, etc. To the extent David Lynch knew and/or believed that Hollywood circa 1950 was permeated by Freudian analysis (writers & directors creating Oedipal classics like White Heat) would make such elements more "conscious."

Please note "aware" and "conscious" of such symbolism doesn't imply David Lynch would deliberately create a movie lugging a wheelbarrow of symbols around. That's like hitting a golf ball with 24 conscious swing thoughts in mind instead of trusting one's unconscious to do the job. (Hmmm, golf club? Again, whether Lynch or his buddies talk about golf would be a helpful fact)

By definition, unacceptable "conscious" thoughts gets repressed into the "unconscious" mind ("subconscious") when the mind gets overwhelmed by conflict. For example when I covered the Winkie's dialog, I initially omitted "by that counter." I knew it meant "counter-transference," but it created internal turbulence, debating whether to focus on the "analytic position." Bluntly, it involves the boundary against the therapists sleeping with patients (akin to directors sleeping with "naive" actresses, or a new "friend" seducing an amnesia victim, etc.) (I plead not guilty--whoa that's a spontaneous negation--well "guilty" thoughts. :eek: )

Art & life are so rich that symbols literally "resonate," in harmony with universal truths. (No I haven't read that school of thought that believes in a universal unconscious but sounds similar. ) (I know more the physics resonance of harmonic waves--but such waves causes bridges & buildings to fall if not anticipated & controlled. :eek

Thus, an artist, writer or filmmaker naturally has such symbolic elements in their work. I assume a "psychoanalytic" art critic could find classic Freudian themes in da Vinci's work, but Leonardo wasn't in analysis and couldn't have made cultural references to Siggy.

IMHO, that "fact" does not not invalidate such interpretations. How "true they ring" is "key" (wink, wink) ;)
Dec 18, 2002 7:48 PM
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NOTE: so Simon replied to "Is it done consciously?"

Link to IMDb post


Simon reply to "Is it done consciously?"

Yes, of course this is right. I have even had my own experience of this when I tried writing an adult fairy tale. I would get in the groove and later on when I read it over, I would find I had unconsciously dropped into some kind of mythic narrative template, and obvious symbolic elements had appeared without conscious effort. How could I have forgotten?

I also feel the intensity of Lynch's vision comes as the result of some almost perfect balance between the cerebral and the intuitive.
These insights into the Breakfast at Winkies are very illuminating. I hadn't picked up on the Oedipal theme at all. I had seen Dan as a proxy for Diane, and the Monster "in back of here who's doing it" as an attempt to offload her responsibility and guilt.

Lynch has always claimed that he had a very normal, happy upbringing, but maybe it was just a bit too normal - like the rest of us fortunate people.

If you have time I would like to hear your take on the script which Betty (Diane) does for her audition. Nobody has responded to my feeling that the content of this script is intended to have been derived from Diane's memory, and the trauma it describes is at the root of her disfunctional behavior. She even describes it as 'lame' (crippling) when she is with Rita. The conventionally angry tone of her read-through with Rita seems to reveal the essential lack of honesty in their relationship.

If I don't respond to your reply it is because I will be away for 2-3 days.

Simon
Dec 18, 2002 7:53 PM
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NOTE: Okay, I wanted to clarify that darn Oedipal complex. But it's a tricky "beast"--the more you try to warn that it's no big deal, the bigger it becomes (ironic, eh?) That's a HUGE, theme of the movie IMHO--a huge theme of life--freaks me out as a matter of fact.

That what all that "song & dance" before I started posting all this was about anyway. We're all afraid of that monster behind the Winkies. You'll see. ;)

Link to IMDb Post

Oedipal doesn't equal "trauma"

Thanks Simon for your feedback and warning your abscense.

Freud taught that a child with "very normal, happy upbringing" still faced "Oedipal conflicts." They take many forms (fight with dad over mom, get scared of dad then become his macho buddy, get scared of dad so become feminine, start loving dad and be feminine to seduce him) BTW, it's like religion: no matter which outcome (masculine or feminine, likes dad or hates him, etc.) there's a plausible Oedipal explanation that "rings true."

Similarly (sexual) trauma is neither confirmed nor denied by Oedipal "issues."

My specific perspective of the movie sees a potentially happy ending: for example, "it's all just a bunch of dreams" (a hall of mirrors where characters are referring to each other all the time). This is analogous to "it's just a film about illusions." (Clue: What is felt, realized & gathered at the club Silencio? I didn't feel sad because I know cut-away shots of tears as a trick. I "realized" that Rebekah Del Rio really doesn't die.)

All these perspectives are valid. (I didn't say "equally." ;))

It's enough to drive you crazy. :confused:
Dec 18, 2002 8:01 PM
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So Simon clarifies what he meant

Link to IMDb link

Simon replies to "Oedipal doesn't equal 'trauma' "

Maybe you misunderstood me.

The trauma I was referring to was the one of abuse hinted at during the few pages of the audition script that Betty does for Wally the producer.

I felt that it was also implied that Wally (a friend of Woody's) was Diane's father and the casting agent (Linny James) was Diane's mother. They had been married to each other beforehand. Woody was the abuser from Diane's past.

Curiouser and curiouser. Gotta hit the road,

Simon
Dec 18, 2002 8:09 PM
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NOTES: My title "Okay, audition scene" meant, "Okay I'll cover it" but I noticed that some posters here note that it also refers to "hey it was just 'okay' if not awful"

Second, David Lynch's casting of Chad Everett as the doctor (dancer Ann Miller as the mother, achy-brachy heart singer dude, "down under" Australians with "under-world" hell themes, etc.) is no coincidence IMHO--esp. in this scene.

This deconstruction likely will be annoying for "non-believers" of analysis. As you will see in a post soon to come (the next one?) analysis itself is annoying and causes anger. If you walk out on this thread you might be missing something good. (I came so close to turning off Mulholland Drive because I was mistrustful & annoyed at Lynch)

Then again, you might be saving time & your soul ;)

Link to IMDb

Okay, audition scene

Patience, patience.

I'm not getting paid to be slow and we'll do that scene soon. Since analysis is about "free-association" let's do it now because "unrelated" links are "key."

Symbols work on multiple planes and can mean their exact opposites. Analysis, like Lynch movies--initially annoying, counter-intuitive, being a "true believer" helps, it can't be "disproved,"--initially seem like a waste of time & money (many audience reviewers said that, hmmm--projected anger by Lynch--his revenge for analysis?)

Woody Katz ("woody" in his pants?) refers to boundary violations (incest, therapist & patient, director & auditioning actresses). The director Bob Brooker "brokers" the meeting, but "brook" means "tolerate" so he's pretending to be oblivious to the hanky-panky. Linney James is watching to see if Betty crosses any line. The once married Bob & Linney are an ideal "blind cop, sharp cop" team. David Lynch as a patient and director would know both sides of lines one "shouldn't cross" but "happens all the time."

I couldn't believe my analyst never heard of the Hollywood "casting couch." (note the use of couches and sofas in the film especially by Diane). Uhh, analysts use couches ;).

Woody (pre-"scene") "Just tell me where it hurts baby" (odd phrase here but doctors ask, "where does it hurt?")

"Clueless" director Bob Brooker: "Just don't rush that line again" (boundary lines)

Woody (still pre-"scene") (omit banter re they're all the same, "just like in the movies") "Now, we're gonna play this nice and close." ( flirting with boundary)

Woody:"Dad's best friend goes to work" (penis--"Woody"--about to work--still pre-"scene")
(someone has to remind Bob--Father, medical board, system--while Woody is doing this "favor" for Bob. But Woody is clearly "getting off" on too)

Bob (upon awakening?): And...action!

Betty (girl-Diane-patient-casting couch actress): You're still here. (The session is over, but they are still together.)
Woody(creep-abuser?-therapist-director): I came back. I thought that's what you wanted.
Betty (girl-Diane-patient-actress): Nobody wants you here.
Woody (creep-abuser?-therapist-director): Really?

I'll focus on the patient's "fantasy." The last session of the day is ideal for seduction. (Tip: keep a secretary around--but that has problems too :eek: ). The last session can be "extended." But Woody's off to work, so it should be AM--ah, opposite rule, it's PM and she's not leaving. "Nobody wants you here.". can mean "I want you here." "She" has a fantasy to seduce the therapist.

The other opposite symbol is that pre-"scene" or before "action" Woody was acting "inappropriate" (before the session clock). After "action" the butt-fondling & kissing is part of "his job" ("Dad's best friend goes to work" ). The "action" represents the "time's up--session's over" boundary between "work" and "this is between us as two individuals now--not doctor-patient, not director-actress, I'm not forcing you to leave now, it's up to you." Same as "I'm not putting my hand on your butt, you're putting my hand on it--you put your arm around my neck--you kissed me--you can go to jail too."

Remember when the young prostitute asked the hitman a cigarette (phallic)? He insisted that she reach in his coat to get it. An incredibly fine point, but it allows him to say "he didn't corrupt this minor." (Next thing you know, she's off to the van (sex, police, jail, death).

The same symbols are repeated. After Betty gives into temptation ("Adam" didn't give into his secretary's temptation before meeting God remember?)

Betty-(girl-Diane-patient-actress)I hate you...I hate us both. (scene ends-but nothing really does)
Linney James: I'm going to take her over there
assistant Nikki Yeah, big time

I first thought "Over there" "Big time" first meant prison for a big time sentence). It then looks like Lynne & Nikki leading her away to her execution.

Linney James: We'll walk Betty out <<omit dialogue>>Come on, Betty

Woody: "Where the hell did you find her?" (Uhh, hell?)
Linney James (walking): God, that was awful (Yup, tells her boss "another sinner for the fire")
Linney James (pauses, to correct): Not you Betty. You were stellar and I mean that. ("Stellar" means star as in heaven, but she's not convincing me)

Linney James also refers to Adam's project (not by name) and says Betty will "Knock right out of the park!" (Garden of Eden reference) They exit past an elevator (soon going down, no doubt) and they camera lingers on a bright red FIRE sign.

Betty: He was very nice and he seemed so sweet. (The serpent seemed nice & the apple was sweet.)
Betty: And Wally--Mr.Brown--is a very close friend of my aunt's and-]

Settle down Betty! (get married and settle down because you're pregnant? Ruin your actress career? David won't marry you-he wants you to "get rid" of "your trouble?") and save that "Brown" horsepucky. I'm not sure who you're aunt really is. She sure looks like Lynne James to me. The more you invent these stories people are going to wonder if she really died or really is an "aunt" because wasn't this supposed to be a TV series that could last for years?)

Okay, now I'm starting to sound like horse-pucky to many by now (if not sooner). If so, good, I'm just trying to work this out in my mind. Somebody stop me because maybe I'm like a joyrider out of control on Mulholland drive going to have a "terrible accident" soon.

It's more fun if someone responds, but I can post into the "Silencio" too. More on that soon
Dec 18, 2002 8:33 PM
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Note: Here's an "angry 'dialog' " that works on a few levels. I'll tell you at least two. First is the one I imagine between David Lynch and his hypothetical analyst (who might live on Mulholland Drive for all we know ;) Second is the one you might imagine I would have with my own analyst ;) Of course, nobody would have such an angry dialogue with any of our parents, especially our mothers--what a cliche that would be. :eek:

Link to IMDb post

Who seduces whom? an angry "dialog"

The audition scene deals with "daddy's best friend going to work" and a much younger girl. Blackmail, jail, murder and parents are mentioned. I'm sure I'm repressing other key issues. We all have blind spots. (I can't put quotes around everything or smiley icons on every other line

I bet when I write that a starlet is seducing a director or a patient is seducing a therapist or a hypothetical incest survivor is "seducing" a "father figure", some will say "that's sick!"

Well yes & no. Yes it's "sick" because it's "abuse" ("wrongly using" one's superior position). But Lynch may be saying that a director has no more choice in some artistic decisions (casting or leg in a "cast") as an abuse survivor, a casting couch auditioner, a crack whore, a "casting couch" starlet, or a vulnerable patient.

Also ambivalence not apathy--ambivalence means feeling strongly in several ways) may exist precisely because the "victim" (or "survivor") is confused by several emotions.

During analysis, a therapist, encourages fantasies about the therapist for example:

Therapist: You are in love with me and want to sleep with me, it's called "transference."
David Lynch: Wait, what about counter-transference. Couldn't you want to seduce me? Don't analysts fall in love with patients?
Therapist: That happens in the movies.
Lynch: [COLOR=red]And in real life.[/red]
Therapist: I'm too professional to do that.
Lynch: Don't tell me about "too professional"! I used to think I could never cross that line. But then I fell in love with an actress I was casting. So that boundary was gone. Next thing I know, every big role was an opportunity to meet the hottest talent in town.

You know what wrong with the above dialog? It just hit me. There is no "dialog." The patient does all the talking, the analyst none, so that the patient imagines the analyst's private life--projecting fantasies. If they are in the patient dreams about the analyst, even better. The patient spills every last secret, a few inches away, encouraged to have sexual fantasies because they supposedly mirror childhood sexual fantasies for their parents. The ultimate betrayal is to learn the therapist has other patients, a real spouse, a mother, etc.

You know what really is the ultimate frustration? You share all your fears, hopes, dreams, trust, money, and what do you get in return? Do you know what you get?!!
[quote]Silencio [/quote]
It makes you want to kill that mo-fo sometimes. Give that therapist a reason to be "silencio" "more than anything in this world" (hope "this" world is a dream world--she didn't the "the world")

So maybe your therapist dies in your dreams.

Or maybe you can write a movie--about dreams & therapy--where therapists die.

Or maybe you can write posts about movies--about filmmakers who write movies--about dreams & therapy--where therapists die.

And you know what a therapist might say if they (if they weren't so "silent" all the time). It's not just about anger at your therapist, but some anger about your nice perfectly normal "Eagle Scout" childhood.
Dec 18, 2002 8:42 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by TristanLove

But one quick question and curiosity... have you read a single thread here on this forum, prior?
[/QUOTE]
I don't think I read any Rotten Tomatoes threads before I wrote my posts; most of my background information came via the Internet Movie Database and any links it had to external sources (Salon.com)

I read thru many threads/posts on this forum before deciding to post for a similar reason I keep asking about the "archives"--and it parallels my personal experience of the movie as you note. I'm "haunted" by the fear someone will rise up & humiliate me and say "Duh! that's obvious--already been considered & rejected."

I seem to recall someone--likely you--referring to someone on alt.movies.davidlynch who believes that Diane part of Dan's dream. I just started looking.

Thanks for your interest so far!
Dec 19, 2002 6:19 AM
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Thanks for the time and effort!

I devoured it, I was upset when I got to the end

waiting for more!!!!!!!
Dec 19, 2002 6:40 AM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by TristanLove
Steve,
But one quick question and curiosity... have you read a single thread here on this forum, prior?
[/QUOTE]

Another thing, psychanalysis looks for parallel events at different levels.

Anal-retentive, self-indulgent people (me!) look at "everything" including ourselves. "Here & now" examples are the best, so notice TristanLove quoted me in her (assuming by photo "this is the girl" ;) )[QUOTE]I write "FACTS" because IMHO psychoanaylsis is a pseudo-science with religious tendencies.[/QUOTE] That referred to how knowing more David Lynch facts (in analysis? a film-history "scholar"?) would help both "analyze" the film & with the credibility of this interpretation.

TristanLove's post to me ends with an "oh by the way I'd like to you ask a factual quesion." (see above).

That parallels what I said: facts help, but here she'd like facts about me. (Hey, I wouldn't mind knowing the first "fact" about "her" as in whether she is a she) Have I read posts here? What's my forum discussion "cultural background" This parallels me wondering whether David Lynch believed that Billy Wilder (Sunset Blvd.) was in analysis.

TristanLove may say "it was an innocent question." A Freudian might say "your unconscious made you do it." Certain Christians say "the Devil made me do it." ;)

As a "practical guy" (Ha!) I say let's try analytice here Include my neurotic life for now if you think this thead tells you more about me than the movie.

But if you find it "boring" I'll claim sleep is more comforting than the truth. Can I do that? It's my movie, uhh I mean post.
Dec 19, 2002 7:06 AM
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NOTES: This post actually was a back-track response to Simon's earlier quesion about the name "Camilla Rhodes"

The party scene is incredibly rich; this is but one version interpretations simultaneously occurring (symbols & characters being "over-determined" in a dream?)

"This is David Lynch's analysis" let me enter a whole world of universal truths. Each time I watch I see more; it is sublime.

This interpretation may seem limiting & trivializing--I feel the exact opposite. Especially now I'd understand your skepticsm--that's why I wanted a commitment before we started. Please trust me, I think you will find it helpful.

At least thought-provoking

Link to original IMDb post

Name "Camilla Rhodes" and party scene

I was struck by the scene where the car stops and drops Diane off at 6980 Mulholland Drive. Camilla Rhodes appears like a dream and says:

"Shortcut...Come on, sweetheart...It's beautiful, a secret path" (Up through the woods--to grandma's house?--Camilla's dressed like Red Riding Hood)
"Ah, perfect timing" (to Adam, bringing wine glasses--sounds orgasmic to me)

Adam: "Well...here's to love"
Diane: (appears smaller, childlike) "Here's to love"
Coco: Ah here she is!
Adam: I don't believe you met my mother. (Well she'd be "grandma" if Adam is "papa" if Diane is the kid.)
(omit)
Diane: I'm sorry I was late. (late for appointment, late climaxing, late having period... because earlier in courtyard scene)

Coco (to Diane): Louise Bonner said there's trouble in there. Remember last night? Well, sometimes she's wrong. But if there is trouble, get rid of it.

A girl "in trouble" used to mean pregnant. (especially "in there.") "Get rid of it" speaks for itself.

Sorry about the detour.

Freud called dreams the "royal road" to the unconscious mind. Since Camilla Rhodes is leading Diane one the "beautiful, secret-path shortcut" I think she's a symbol of "dreams" (she's a "dream-girl"). Camilla also sounds like chamaeleon which fits her multiple looks. It also speaks to how characters swap roles in dreams.

I speculate Adam represents the therapist in this "dream" and Diane plays a castrated & humiliated patient. (Note Coco takes one nut--remember Coco gave "Betty" the key to the Aunt's apartment and now the Aunt is dead--food for thought)
Dec 19, 2002 8:25 AM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by shatterd heart
Thanks for the time and effort!

I devoured it, I was upset when I got to the end

waiting for more!!!!!!!
[/QUOTE]
Annoyed there's not enough?

Cool! There's plenty more where this came from, as in

"That's horse pucky...It comes from a good place."

Pucks come from Canada. Canada = heaven, etc. etc. etc.

I'm just full of it! ;)
Dec 19, 2002 8:29 AM
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Notes: Finally back on track to Dan & Herb going to see the monster.

Actually, it's no big surprise looking at things by levels (including me & the other board) that things may have got detoured--that monster is quite scary. Well here goes something (I'm scared right now--called "conditioned response" in my field)

Which is like Pavlov's dog--ironically whenever I hear, write, or think about Pavlov I start to salivate. First it was a joke, but now it happens all the time, like right now. Humans, (especially men?) are just bigger dogs with gigantic brains all the better excuses--especially to themselves That's what the unconscious is for: to lie to yourself so you can convince others when you lie to them :eek:

Link to original IMDb post

Dan (Lynch) & therapist leave Winkies

Last "session" (I'm getting into this ;)) we stopped when Herb (therapist) basically said, "that's nice, check please, session's over, let's see this 'monster,' no big deal."

Sound, lighting, prop discontiuities make things dreamlike. A patient feeling misunderstood & discounted might get enraged, leading to dissocitative "reality" changes.

Here's one way psychoanalysis "works": The analyst helps the patient see that childhood monsters are distorted, exaggerated illusions that can be handled as an adult, with a trusty, competent therapist along on the journey.

The all-knowing psychoanalyst believes the following:

"You didn't actually kill someone."
"There aren't really any monsters."
"It won't kill you to look in the past."
"I'll keep things safe & under control."

They might not say this-- they're getting paid by the year, oops I meant the hour ;) .

A child sees a big brand-new world (like Betty at LAX). Developmental stages & challenges (phycical, mental, emotional, sexual, etc.) occur ideally when the child is ready for that step. They learn roles & identities (who's mamma, daddy, what the heck is an "aunt"?) by being told and through "pretend" games. But the monsters are real and "scare them to death." (No, they don't hahahaha--notice how babies laugh when they realize the jack in the box isn't real )

Don't get us started on sex. Okay, if you insist ;). Mommy is baby's world: suck away, poop away (courtyard), every need attended; just cry. Ya gotta love Mom. (I mean you have to, otherwise you're kicked out into the big city("throw him out! throw him out")--abandonned baby half-life: around 15 hours :eek: ). A boy gets this "winkie" that makes strange sensations (childhood sexual development was Freud's "big thingie"--BTW, it helps to have a dirty mind for puns, etc.--that's how the unconscious works ;)).

Whoa, there's "another man!" Yup, a real "mofo." Literally, he's, doing something to mommy behind those walls & doors. Is he hurting her? She's moaning like it's painful, but she seems to like it. Pretty overwhelming. That really should wait until your much, much older when your emotions can handle it. ("Just forget you ever saw it. It's better that way.")

But a little boy can't help it, he wants to be the man of the house ("you bastard, that bastard") and as the Oedipus story goes (who has residuals on that plot; Sophocles?) he wants to kill "the other man" (daddy) to sleep with mommy ('rut ro). I vaguely recall Freud saying that little boy ("oh boy") wants to cut daddy's "winkie" (castrate the jewels--make the jewelry pink) but is afraid daddy will get to boy's "winkie" first (turn them pink & feminine first) so boy tries to cut his own deal: I'll blind myself (see no evil) and maybe we can even be buddies.

Little boy is worried daddy (and maybe his hitmen monsters?) won't go for that deal, and has some nightmares for a while. Better put those monsters in a box, in a closet, out back with the trash, in a van, do something! (put it in the past, let's "go ahead.") But you know how it is when you commit a crime, someone (hitmen, police, GOD) is always watching.

Well, gotta stop for right now. Let's see what the big deal out back is. Next time.
Dec 19, 2002 8:41 AM
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2566
Steve,

Your material is not easy to follow because of all the Freudian concepts and references. Personally (like Tristan), I believe much (not all) of Freudian psychology was like a religion -- and akin to astrology as well -- he had an "answer" for everything -- just not much of it connected to reality. A set of "floating abstractions" if you will.

For example, take the Oedipus Complex: If there's no evidence of it, it's just "repressed." If the opposite is exhibited, it's a "reaction formation."

And I really think that if you read the threads on this board and thought about them, you just might be converted.
Dec 19, 2002 9:27 AM
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 462
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dave H.
Steve,

Your material is not easy to follow because of all the Freudian concepts and references. Personally (like Tristan), I believe much (not all) of Freudian psychology was like a religion -- and akin to astrology as well -- he had an "answer" for everything -- just not much of it connected to reality. A set of "floating abstractions" if you will.

For example, take the Oedipus Complex: If there's no evidence of it, it's just "repressed." If the opposite is exhibited, it's a "reaction formation."

And I really think that if you read the threads on this board and thought about them, you just might be converted.
[/QUOTE]

LOL

Uhh, converted to what (see below):confused:

It's hard to follow. A real psycho-analysis takes years. You may have read these posts in an hour. Psycho-analysis takes place one "hour", 5 days a week each week of the year, for years.

BTW, I never said I was a "true believer" in psychoanalysis.

I agree psychoanalysis being an un-falsifiable religion. That's the thing. That's what makes it annoying.

If this forum has specific threads & posts relating to this thread show me! I'll think about them and make our time more profitable ;)

To "what" would I be converted "to." (I'd like a little more than just saying "from" an out-dated discarded theory ;)).

Even if the Oedipal complex isn't "true" (whatever that means) if that theme was in [b]Sunset Blvd [/b] a movie referenced in [b]Mulholland Drive,[/b] That has "Oedipal" meaning because David Lynch takes a "parent" film and makes "winking" references to it.

Whether a 4 year old wants to screw mama & kill papa is theoretically a separate issue (but it was disturbing when you read that :eek: ). So leave that aside it for now. I'll read your posts, you read mine.

Better yet, let's talk in "real time" while I have some free time (I won't bite)--I can be friendlier & franker in public

AIM: unc1984steve
E-mail is [email]unc84steve@cox.com[/email]

If you're ask questions: here or there--you're not the only one confused (probably me too).

Let me ask "you" a question though LOL, Why are you wondering if I read the old threads & posts?

Maybe I'm missing something big--if so great--tell me. I think I've heard most of the "what part is really who's dream where" and "who stands in for whom, etc."

In my mind it all the theories make sense in a constant hall of mirrors--which is what a dream world is. This theory builds on them, & doesn't discount them.
Dec 19, 2002 10:38 AM
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 892
Steve,

This theory depends completely on David Lynch having as much knowledge about physco-analysis as you do. Is there any evidence that he was trained in this or has had some other experience to gain this knowledge?
Dec 19, 2002 11:29 AM
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