Naomi's interpretation...

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Mornin' y'all...

Here's Naomi's interpretation -- an excerpt from her very lengthy interview with Wrapped In Plastic magazine #56 (Dec. 2001)...

Q: Your interpretation is one in which Betty is the fantasy character, correct?

NW: Basically, I see Diane as this failed actress in an unrequited love story. Camilla represents everything she wants. Because the love is not being reciprocated, she starts planning the worst. When it?s done, things go into a horrible place. Before the end (there is) a stream of consciousness ? her wish of how it could have been. There is Betty, who knows who she is. And there is Rita, who has no sense of identity. Betty is in control. Almost everyone likes to have some kind of power ? a kid will dress her doll and give her a name. That?s what Betty was in the dream with Rita ? she was able to tell Rita who she was and manipulate her in different ways. So that?s how I saw the story.

But then also, people have asked me, ?Was it the dream of the guy at the diner?? You know, the guy at Winkie?s speaking to his therapist. Was that the one truthful scene in the movie, and was the rest dream? One of the things I learned doing a project a long time ago is that there is this whole research about dreams called Gestalt that says you are everyone in your dream. Not only every character but every texture ? like the fabric in your dress (or) every leg of the table; everything you design or create in your dream is another version of yourself.
Sep 23, 2002 6:05 AM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dave H.
Mornin' y'all...
One of the things I learned doing a project a long time ago is that there is this whole research about dreams called Gestalt that says you are everyone in your dream. Not only every character but every texture ? like the fabric in your dress (or) every leg of the table; everything you design or create in your dream is another version of yourself.
[/QUOTE]

Mornin, Dave.

How can I get ahold of Gestalt? You got a link or something?
Sep 23, 2002 6:37 AM
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"But then also, people have asked me, ?Was it the dream of the guy at the diner?? You know, the guy at Winkie?s speaking to his therapist."

Italian dialogues version of this scene didn't leave us any doubt about the fact that the Winkie's scene was about a patient and a therapist relationship, because Dan and Herb use an Italian formal pronoun to refer each other ("you" is translated as "she", "lei", instead of "tu") that we use when people doesn't have intimacy, friendship, or when there is a hierarchical relationship, so we couldn't think about Dan and Herb as former lovers and things like this
Sep 23, 2002 6:44 AM
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I knew it all along.

Eyebrow-man is THE man.
Sep 23, 2002 6:46 AM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Papilý
"But then also, people have asked me, ?Was it the dream of the guy at the diner?? You know, the guy at Winkie?s speaking to his therapist."

Italian dialogues version of this scene didn't leave us any doubt about the fact that the Winkie's scene was about a patient and a therapist relationship, because Dan and Herb use an Italian formal pronoun to refer each other ("you" is translated as "she", "lei", instead of "tu") that we use when people doesn't have intimacy, friendship, or when there is a hierarchical relationship, so we couldn't think about Dan and Herb as former lovers and things like this
[/QUOTE]

But we also have to take into consideration the translator (con or sans collaboration/consultation with David Lynch? )
Sep 23, 2002 6:52 AM
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sphygmo, I did a Google-search using "Gestalt" and "dream interpretations" and got a huge list of sites. Give it a shot; I'm sorry, though, I know very little about Gestalt dream interpretation, but I'm skeptical; I mean, a table leg? Say what?!

I agree with you on the Italian thing, though -- unless Lynch himself did the translating, all bets are off.
Sep 23, 2002 8:05 AM
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"But we also have to take into consideration the translator (con or sans collaboration/consultation with David Lynch? )"

Yes, you're right, I don't know anything about the translator, he/she did this choice, maybe with Lynch collaboration, maybe not, in this case he/she has imposed us his/her interpretation and we Italian are leaded to agree with this point of view, unless we see the English version, as I did. It could be interesting to check other foreign translations, French, German, Spanish... there are a lot of MD subtitles for DIVX in different languages.
Sep 23, 2002 8:34 AM
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Papilu, yes -- other translations would be very interesting -- but we're fortunate in that we understand it in its original tongue -- as you almost always lose something in a translation.
Sep 23, 2002 10:07 AM
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With resppect to translations, I think there is only so much control Lynch or anyone else can exercise. First of all, some things just can't be translated. For example, English simply does not have a formal "you" versus a familiar "you," which most other languages do have I think. Choosing either (and one has to be chosen) will necessarily add a context and flavor the original didn't have.

Second, translators always have flubs. Didn't President Carter accidentally say "I lust for the people of Poland." And JFK called himself a cream filled donut by accident ("Ich bin ein Berliner" should have been "Ich bin Berliner"). I was pretty surprised at the difference between the dubbed version of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and the subtitles.

Anyway, I think foreign versions of MD will simply be up to interpretation based on what the translator thought Lynch was trying to say.
Sep 23, 2002 3:52 PM
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ok so eyebrow guy is Diane, and he/she IS speaking to her therapist. Diane certainly is a good candidate for psychotherapy,no?
Sep 23, 2002 4:06 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dave H.
One of the things I learned doing a project a long time ago is that there is this whole research about dreams called Gestalt that says you are everyone in your dream. Not only every character but every texture ? like the fabric in your dress (or) every leg of the table; everything you design or create in your dream is another version of yourself. [/QUOTE]
I think that the basis of this theory is that the person who dreams is the "god" in his/hers dream, in a way..
I'm scared to think that our God sees us in his dream too..
Sep 23, 2002 4:33 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by sphygmo


Mornin, Dave.

How can I get ahold of Gestalt? You got a link or something?
[/QUOTE]

Not trying to answer for Dave but I have found that www.google.com will turn up lots of links for stuff I'm looking for, on any topic.
Sep 23, 2002 5:16 PM
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Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe you've mixed up the Gestalt school with Psychoanalytical. The Gestalt deals with perception from what I know...which is little. Psychoanalysis deals with dream interpretations and such things. Naomi probably just mixed them up...but maybe I could be wrong.
Sep 23, 2002 5:18 PM
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You know, personally I think Herb's patronizing tone throws out Naomi's therapist assumption altogether. I would say he's anything but a therapist.

We need to keep in mind that, although the actors may have gathered some special insight on their own during filming, Lynch wouldn't breathe a word of the story to any of his actors; so Naomi's "therapist" take had to be just her personal assessment.
Sep 23, 2002 5:22 PM
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The Gestalt theory that Dave H mentioned got me thinking.
It?s a very big possibility that everything is the dream of the guy at Winkie?s talking to
his therapist. Everything is figments of his dream, including him self at the start of the
film and at the end of the film, that might be the reason his in the film.

Can somebody also please tell me what the two old people in the limousine got to do
with anything ? They also pushed Betty/Diane to death at the end.
Sep 23, 2002 6:33 PM
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Looking through my psychology book it seems that Gestalt is basically just a study of perception in many different forms. Gestalt even means "shape" or "form" in German. Two examples are given that sum up a small part of Gestalt;

1)Two circles of the same size are placed next to eachother. One is surrounded by larger cirles, and the other is surrounded by smaller circles. When you first look at it you are tricked into believing that one of the two circles is larger than the other. A similar version of this involves one circle with a series of circles surrounding them in which the surrounding circles get bigger and smaller. The middle circle looks as if it is getting bigger and smaller as well, but it is still the same.

2)Another exampel has a series of letters over a series of numbers

A B C D E F
14 13 14 15 16 17

In the actual example the "B" and the "13" are represented by the same symbol which bears resemblance to both while still being one symbol. The person who looks at the symbol in the alphabet line will conclude that it is the letter "B" and the person who looks at the symbol in the number line will conclude that it is the number "13". Both are meant to reflect the nature of the mind in percieving images in the context of it's environment and the things that surround it. Maybe Gestalt in some way involves dreams, but at the moment I doubt it...

I think that Naomi just got a little mixed up.
Sep 23, 2002 6:48 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by TristanLove
Dream theory in Gestalt therapy [/QUOTE]

for some reason the link isn't workin for me...I suppose I shall live in ignorence forever
Sep 23, 2002 6:56 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by TristanLove
Ergill,

That's strange. Try typing in the same exact words on Google search that Zors provided the link. That's what I did. Hopefull that works for you, and we're seeing the same thing.
[/QUOTE]

It still didn't work for me, but either way I found something somewhat similar. I suppose it's not Gestalt itself, but a break away theory of Gestalt or something similar. Jungian as you called it was mentioned. As for dream interpretation I would usually associate that with psychoanalysis, and it seemed like the founders of the Gestalt theory greatly disliked it.


As for the therapist theory it's difficult to tell. He is casual, but also perceptive. Maybe he is a therapist, but also this man's friend. He's not helping him out of just a proffesional obligation, but out of friendship.
Sep 23, 2002 7:20 PM
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The Gestalt theory I think definitely does have a link to the guy at Winkie?s. The Gestalt theory is complicated just as MD is. It?s just the sort of thing David Lynch would intend. I think David Lynch knows what Gestalt is. The film is complicated and the overall plot is about dreams or becoming of a dream in the land of dreams Hollywood. The guy at Winkie?s was talking about dreams, he had something bothering him so he brought his therapist.
He also was at the start and end of the film.

We might have to get a more clear understanding of what Gestalt is.
Sep 23, 2002 7:25 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by OpenDreams
The Gestalt theory I think definitely does have a link to the guy at Winkie?s. The Gestalt theory is complicated just as MD is. It?s just the sort of thing David Lynch would intend. I think David Lynch knows what Gestalt is. The film is complicated and the overall plot is about dreams or becoming of a dream in the land of dreams Hollywood. The guy at Winkie?s was talking about dreams, he had something bothering him so he brought his therapist.
He also was at the start and end of the film.

We might have to get a more clear understanding of what Gestalt is.
[/QUOTE]

could you give me your interpretation of Gestalt. I have a limited understanding myself...
Sep 23, 2002 7:27 PM
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