Crying

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I suppose Rebekha's Spanish version of Roy Orbison's 1961 song "Crying" is nice, but I think the original english version would have been much better (I love that song). Why do you think Lynch used the modern Spanish version?

I think he didn't want to use a clearly recognizable "old" song because young people now-a-days usually just say "ugh that's a (fill in the decade blank) song".

So Lynch used a woman singer and a different language to disguise the age of the song. Kind of ironic, the absence of the original verision makes me want to cry.

Personally, I don't like the whole "Silencio" episode, really adds to the pretentiousness of the movie, which otherwise is not that pretentious. I think Lynch could have come up with a better way of having Dianne find the box.
Jul 31, 2002 9:39 AM
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Up to this point, there have been no scenes that were overtly dream-like. The first-time viewer's only hope of picking up on the idea that they have been watching a dream is to start questioning this scene. You might assume it is a dream that started right after Betty and Rita fell asleep in bed together, but at least it can get you thinking along these lines, and prepare you for grungy Diane to wake up.

I think the song is sung in Spanish because Camilla speaks Spanish. The role of the real Camilla in Diane's dream is to try and break through with the truth. It is why Betty starts shaking uncontrolably in the scene.
Jul 31, 2002 11:55 AM
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I read somewhere that David Lynch saw Rebecca singing that song at a club and asked to work with her. I think this info may have been on her web-site but I can't remeber - I visited so many sites reading up on her, the song and the movie it all blurs together.
Jul 31, 2002 12:48 PM
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Tristan,

"All the world's a stage" is not what I got from the rest of the movie. Certainly it is a theme of the Silencio scene. To me, the main theme of the rest of the movie is about how we fantasize, how we can deceive ourselves not how we deceive others.

I see nothing in the rest of the movie about "all the world's a stage", the rest of the movie is more like "who the heck knows what the world is like, it is different for everybody".

So to me, the Silencio scene is an undeveloped theme that either should have been developed more, or should have been cut.
Jul 31, 2002 1:43 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bukama
I think the song is sung in Spanish because Camilla speaks Spanish. The role of the real Camilla in Diane's dream is to try and break through with the truth. It is why Betty starts shaking uncontrolably in the scene. [/QUOTE]Okay, that makes some sense. But Camilla should have taken the stage and sung it herself then. That would also help justify all the closeups of the singer which seem out of place for somebody who was in the story for a minute or two.

On second thought, I can't see Camilla being in Diane's dream "to try and break through with the truth". Rita is a big part of her fantasy. In fact, Camilla/Rita is the whole reason Diane is having this fantasy in the first place. She wants to get back together with Rita/Camilla. She is in love. And it is Diane's fantasy. Rita/Camilla does not have a mind of her own, everything she does is dictated by Diane's dream.
Jul 31, 2002 1:47 PM
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I think that scene is the crux of the whole movie but I don't think "..all life is a stage" is necessarilly the point. I think it serves to point specifically to the fact that your hopes and dreams often are based on a false ideal, that the reality is often far less romantic than what is shown. In this case Betty's ideal of the Hollywood dream turned out far uglier than she expected and any attempts to romanticize her reality is nothing more than a form of masturbation. It's fake. It's a fantasy. "There is no band..", but often the illusion is so powerfull that we let ourselves forget that it's not real and if we pin our expectations on a fantasy we're in jeapordy of a shocking letdown.

When Rebecca started singing I was completely captivated. I forgot all the word about illusion the MC had just said. When she collapsed and the song kept going it took me a second to snap back into reality and figure out what just happened. I was fooled by the illusion.
Jul 31, 2002 2:30 PM
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What bothers me about Silencio is the theme that "looks can be deceiving" has been done into the dirt throughout the history of movies. I don't like being told this theme again in some pretentious little theater with lipsynching. Grrrr, that just annoys me.

The movie does a fine job of carrying this theme on its own. I think that if you cut Silencio out and found another way for Diane to discover the box, the movie would be just as compelling. And the fact that "looks can be deceiving" would not be lost on any viewer.

As far as Rita's purpose in the dream is concerned,well, the guilt obviously takes over in the end when Diane commits suicide. Whether Rita is there to further this guilt or wake Diane up, I don't know. Obviously, Diane's dream changes into a nightmare. She begins the dream to pretend she is rescuing Camilla from some bad guys. In the end, the guilt of hiring the killer (who appears to have accomplished his task) takes over and she commits suicide.

I suppose blue triangular key represents Diane's better judgement trying to remind her that she is having a dream. So it is there from teh beginning of the fantasy.

By the way, I am not so sure Camilla died at all. Primarily because the limo drivers trying to kill her do not fit the MO of the guy she hired to kill Camilla. I think that from the very beginning, it was a fantasy and there never was a car crash. We know the cops arrival at the accident scene was part of the fantasy, because they found an earring but no woman, and Camilla's escape from the crash was the beginning of the fantasy.

The fact that the blue key appeared on the table is evidence that Camilla was killed. But this was never confirmed, the killer could have been mistaken. The detectives were looking for Diane. But that could have been because there had been an attempt on Camilla's life, or something else. Diane certainly died. How Rita and Betty found Diane's body before she had committed suicide, I couldn't even guess, that defies any ability to dream that I know. Unless Diane was trying to emulate the dead body she had seen in her dream when she committed suicide.
Jul 31, 2002 11:58 PM
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Your reduction of the Silencio scene to "Looks can be deceiving" is sadly inadequate. Lynch is also looking at the world of audience/performer, voyeur/actor in this scene, asking us to think about how much the viewer is part of the performance, how much we in the audience have to willingly suspend our rules of logic and our need for rational explanations in order to fully enter into and completely appreciate a work of art. Notice how Betty and Rita are in a theatre, not a night club, with the red curtain, the balcony and boxed seats. Yet, for the performance of Rebeka del Rio to work its mojo, they are able to (only seconds after being told that it is all a tape, it is all an illusion) buy completely into del Rio's performance. Similarly, a movie audience, only seconds after being told (by trailers, ads, opening credits) that it is "only" a movie, is able forget that it is "all on tape" and enter the world of the filmmaker. If you ask me, it takes major cajones to remind an audience part way through a film that what they are watching is "only" a movie.

Then, we can also move into the psychological examination of the purpose of this scene--how it reflects Diane's fracturing psyche, her desire to remain in the dream, which is a movie she has cast just like a director might, and has a storyline, characters and themes much more appealing to her than her "real" life. However, as much as she wants to remain, she must wake up, so the emcee is pulling her towards reality, shaking her out of her stupor, by reminding her that it is "all an illusion."

"Wake up, pretty girl."
Aug 1, 2002 9:26 AM
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Dan,

Well we always "reduce" things when we analyze the theme of a scene. I merely reduced it more than you did.

Okay, so Silencio was aimed at the relationship of the audience to the performer. Sounds like a fine theme to explore, but I don't see how it relates to this movie any more than another. We have an actress-wannabe trying to fantasize about somebody she wanted dead. The fantasy went wrong and Diane ended up commiting suicide. Like many great stories, it is a pretty simple. Most of the interesting parts of the movie come from how it is told. Which I enjoyed quite a bit, by the way.

If the Silencio scene was supposed to explore the relationship between actors and viewers. I did not find it to be very informative. Sounds like a theme for a whole movie to me, not just one scene of people lipsynching. The funny thing is that most of the time they Rebekah did not appear to be lipsynching, only just before she fainted. It reminded me of Austin Powers, where the waitress was a woman until just before Austin punched him, when he turned into a man. Heh. I guess Austin was exploring the audience's suspension of rational disbelief as well.

If Lynch really wanted to bust the "suspension of disbelief" balloon of the viewers, he could have had the whole movie stop and the actors and actresses introduce themselves one by one and describe their lives and professions.
Aug 1, 2002 11:48 AM
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[QUOTE]Okay, that makes some sense. But Camilla should have taken the stage and sung it herself then. That would also help justify all the closeups of the singer which seem out of place for somebody who was in the story for a minute or two.[/QUOTE]

The dream created by Diane's subconcious is a constant struggle to keep Camilla from realizing who she is (and what has happened to her. I have had dreams where someone I know is dead is alive, and in the dream, my "character" wonders a little how this is possible (since I don't want the person to be dead), and often bizarre things happen in the dream to distract my subconcious self from the fact that the person is actually dead.

In MD, Betty (the innocent part of Diane), probes at the question of who Rita is, but is mostly thwarted, until she opens the blue box. I believe that Camilla as a character in the dream represents the truth almost breaking to the surface. The first time is when "Camilla" comes out and starts singing at the audition, and Adam stares at Betty meaningfully. Betty panics and runs off to avoid the truth. Then when they go to Diane's home and find a dead body, (not necessarily Diane's - it was so bloated and decayed, who knows), Rita panics forcing Betty to leave and console her. Finally, Rita lies awake but in a sort of trance, whispering "Silencio." This could be the Spanish speaking Camilla trying to speak through Rita, or it could be Rita telling Camilla to shut up. Either way, they go the club, and Camilla, singing in Spanish (and with a diffrent name, I know) almost brings Betty to the truth. She fights it off, but is given the blue box which, when opened, will reveal the truth and signal time to wake up.

In response to another comment above, I don't think Camilla was killed in a car crash. I don't think Diane knows how she died, but the key and the detectives visits indicate she did. The suuited hitman was just a fancy in Diane's dream, and the car crash was just an elaborate dream event to, once again, prevent the dreamer from realizing or accepting that Camilla was dead.
Aug 1, 2002 12:14 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Quasimodem
Dan,

Well we always "reduce" things when we analyze the theme of a scene. I merely reduced it more than you did.

Okay, so Silencio was aimed at the relationship of the audience to the performer. Sounds like a fine theme to explore, but I don't see how it relates to this movie any more than another.
[/QUOTE]

Mebbe you missed the whole Hollywood/Sunset Blvd-like satire that Lynch was working here. Diane is lured by the fantasy of H/Wood, seduced by the notion of fame and popularity, but betrayed by her lack of talent (or connections. Or both). She was unable to distinguish between the projection and the reality, and in her dream (which is constructed like a classic film noir--Diane has obviously seen a lot of 'em, and knows their conventions well) she tries to escape into a movie-land ("This Dream Place") that is so much better than her reality. How many of US in the audience do the same thing--go to movies to escape from our reality, actively suspend our disbelief so we can enter a dream-like state that is soothing or exciting or romantic or whatever we are seeking in our fantasies that we don't have in reality? Diane is in some ways our surrogate--and her terrible failure is like a clarion to the audience warning us of the dangers of leading such a self-delusional life.

And this is just scratching the surface of Silencio, which is one of the most memorable and thought provoking movie scenes that I have ever seen.
Aug 1, 2002 12:55 PM
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Lot's of good theories here, but I don't quite know WHAT to make of the Silencio scene, and it's not one of my favorites. In fact, I find it a bit too melodramatic (albeit visually stunning) and tend to want to skip it when I watch the movie (I'm a big fan of the Cowboy/Adam scene myself and the sequence of events leading up to their meeting). The same theater/curtains imagery was in Eraserhead and The Elephant Man so it's a Lynch motif.

The gist of it for me most of the time when I watch it is all about reality vs. illusion/denial, and the song seems to serve as a way that Diane's "reality" is breaking through to her in the dream sequence of her and Rita, an idea already mentioned. When you hear the thunder and she is shaking in her seat, it reminds me of the I Ching Hexagram 51 - The Shocking/Arousing where the metaphor used is that thunder is the fear/wrath of God/heaven trying to shock someone into looking at themselves and WAKE THE F#@K UP to what is really going on and that there are powerful forces outside ourselves that we have no control over (acts of God, other people's feelings/motives towards us, etc).

As we see later in the pool party scene, Diane has been in denial about Camilla wanting to dump her, which is understandable because when she and Camilla are making out on the couch Camilla is pulling a classic "push me, pull you" manipulation by telling her "you drive me wild" one minute, then "we shouldn't do this anymore" the next. Maybe what the Silencio scene really is about is that in spite of Diane being in denial about Camilla's real feelings towards her, Camilla is going to do what she wants anyway. She is basically just using Diane for sex and has no intention of make any kind of real commitment to either Diane (or any other woman lover) or the politics of lesbianism since she has too much to gain by sleeping with men in power who can give her what she wants in Hollywood - a la Joan Crawford. Possibly, what we have here at Silencio is the truth about Camilla's real feelings towards her, (not her death which we are never sure of) is trying to come to the surface of Diane's psyche through Betty's shaking when we hear thunder?

Hey Tristan - love the quote and the photo in your avatar!!!
Aug 1, 2002 5:42 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bukama


The dream created by Diane's subconcious is a constant struggle to keep Camilla from realizing who she is (and what has happened to her. I have had dreams where someone I know is dead is alive, and in the dream, my "character" wonders a little how this is possible (since I don't want the person to be dead), and often bizarre things happen in the dream to distract my subconcious self from the fact that the person is actually dead.

In response to another comment above, I don't think Camilla was killed in a car crash. I don't think Diane knows how she died, but the key and the detectives visits indicate she did. The suuited hitman was just a fancy in Diane's dream, and the car crash was just an elaborate dream event to, once again, prevent the dreamer from realizing or accepting that Camilla was dead.
[/QUOTE]

I totally agree about the dreams. I also agree that Camilla may not have been killed in the car crash. We are never totally sure about how she died.
Aug 1, 2002 5:49 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan Jardine
Mebbe you missed the whole Hollywood/Sunset Blvd-like satire that Lynch was working here. Diane is lured by the fantasy of H/Wood, seduced by the notion of fame and popularity, but betrayed by her lack of talent (or connections. Or both). She was unable to distinguish between the projection and the reality, and in her dream (which is constructed like a classic film noir--Diane has obviously seen a lot of 'em, and knows their conventions well) she tries to escape into a movie-land ("This Dream Place") that is so much better than her reality. How many of US in the audience do the same thing--go to movies to escape from our reality, actively suspend our disbelief so we can enter a dream-like state that is soothing or exciting or romantic or whatever we are seeking in our fantasies that we don't have in reality? Diane is in some ways our surrogate--and her terrible failure is like a clarion to the audience warning us of the dangers of leading such a self-delusional life. [/QUOTE]I can't agree here, I think you are giving the movie more credit than anybody can put into a two-hour movie. It is a pretty simple movie, and the focus is on how we deceive ourselves with fantasies and dreams. And how the dreams can backfire.

Yes, Diane goes to Hollywood hoping to be a successful actress. For whatever reason, all she is able to get is is a lover who appears to be a successful actress. Then she loses this, and she snaps. Of course Diane is going to fantasize that she is a successful actress and Camilla Rhodes unfairly took the part. But the movie does not focus on her failure as an actress. It focuses on her desire to get her relationship with Camilla back. The failure of her dreams to be a successful actress do not come up much. The failure of her relationship does come up constantly.

Can you say that she would not have committed suicide, after Camilla broke up with her, had she been a successful actress? I don't think so, I think she would have been even more pissed at Camilla and still tried to kill her, then the demons would have come to the successful actress.

Now, the analogy between Diane's dream state and a theatrical escapist performance is completely plausible and would make an excellent expansion of the "dreams can be dangerous" theme. That may be what Lynch was trying to do with Silencio, but I don't think he spent enough time on this theme to make it an important part of the movie.
Aug 1, 2002 9:57 PM
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It's not the LENGTH of time a director (or any artist) spends on a topic that determines its importance to the movie's theme, it is the INTENSITY of that time. A single speck of light in a velvet sky, and all that.

Your dismissal of my analysis -a blanket "you're reading too much into it" -doesn't quite wash with me. I think everything that happens in the movie supports my interpretation, and just cuz you think Lynch would have spent more time on something if he'd really meant to touch on it doesn't wash with me. Lynch is all about insinuating ideas, about suggesting emotions, and he is diametrically opposed to spelling themes out to his audience.

The movie certainly DOES show us that Diane is a failure as an actress--and not just in the waking portion of the film, where we can see her failure first hand, and listen to her describe her inability to get more than a few crumbs of work thrown her way by Camilla, but also in her dream, where she fails to get a part, even though she kicks arse during the audition scene, only to be informed that the film will never be made (and where she hears the talent agent say "That was AWFUL!" Even though she says she is talking about Wally and Bob, there is every likelihood that Diane heard these very words uttered after one of her failed auditions in her "real" waking life).

Would a successful Diane have killed herself if she'd been rejected by Camilla? Dunno, but I suspect that a successful Diane would have had a stronger hold on her psychological health--failure makes one vulnerable. However, as some round here feel that Diane is the victim of childhood sexual abuse (I'm not convinced, but there is a long and interested thread devoted to the topic if you are interested), if'n they're right, there's no way you can permanently escape from that reality, no matter how lovely the dream may be, and she may have ended up--if not shooting herself--killing herself in more socially acceptable ways (alcohol, drugs).

The movie is set in Hollywood, and focuses on the business and craft of moviemaking for many reasons, and I think ONE of those reasons is that Lynch (in the Silencio scene in particular) wants to provoke the audience to think about its role in the whole creative process. Answer me this: Why would Lynch seat Betty and Rita in the balcony of a red-curtained theatre (at Silencio) if he all he wants to do is explore the idea that dreams are dangerous? He's talking about a helluva lot more, that's why. Just cuz he doesn't connect all the dots doesn't mean that there ain't an interesting picture to see.
Aug 1, 2002 11:02 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by TristanLove
Zors,

Very interesting and I like your explanation. Can you tell me more about the I Ching Hexagram 51? I think it's a Chinese philosophy thing?

[/QUOTE]

Thanks and yes, the I Ching is very old and was written in ancient China, like about 2000 years ago or more and is a book of wisdom or divination. Without going into a lengthy explanation here, it's composed of 64 "hexagrams" and each one has an archetypal metaphor, most of them relating to things from the natural world (animal characteristics, water and its properties, thunder, mountains, lakes, etc). A lot of people think it's for "fortune-telling" or predicting the future, however I feel it's real purpose is to get advice on what course of action to take in a given situation at a certain point in time, a cause/effect type of thing, like if you take action A, then you will get result B. Or it can give you the gist of a situation with what is called a "static" hexagram. If you are interested, contact me offline and I can give you more info.

I have no idea whether it's something Lynch is into the I Ching or not, since I don't know the man myself, but there are many filmmakers who are into it, as are artists, musicians, and just regular everyday people. Many artists convey messages in terms of metaphors and archetypes, and as we know MD is full of them (eg. The Cowboy, Camilla the femme fatale, the limo ride, illusion vs. reality in the form of the theater stage, The Magician, the concept of seduction, etc).
Aug 2, 2002 7:30 AM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan Jardine
The movie certainly DOES show us that Diane is a failure as an actress--and not just in the waking portion of the film, where we can see her failure first hand, and listen to her describe her inability to get more than a few crumbs of work thrown her way by Camilla, but also in her dream, where she fails to get a part, even though she kicks arse during the audition scene, only to be informed that the film will never be made (and where she hears the talent agent say "That was AWFUL!" Even though she says she is talking about Wally and Bob, there is every likelihood that Diane heard these very words uttered after one of her failed auditions in her "real" waking life).[/QUOTE]

Hi everyone... I just watched MD for the second time last night.

I agree with Dan here that one of the major themes in the film is Diane's insulating herself against her own failure. Notice Rita/Camilla's stilted acting in the scene where she is reading dialog for Betty's audition. I think this shows that Diane was trying to disqualify any talent that Camilla may have had in the real world so that her (Betty/Diane's) talent would seem that much greater.
Aug 2, 2002 7:47 AM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by TristanLove


Thanks Zors.
[/QUOTE]

Anytime...:cool:
Aug 2, 2002 2:32 PM
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Dan,

"Diametrically opposed to spelling out themes"? What was Silencio all about then, looked to me like he was coming pretty close to spelling out the theme of the movie. That is what is so annoying about it.

I can't separate out dialog and time devoted to a subject from "intensity". It is all interrelated. Intensity is built up with dialog, preparing us for some kind of climax. There was no build up for Silencio, it came right out of the "blue" like white paint dripping on a black car. I didn't feel the Silencio was very intense, it was a bunch of actors putting on a very shallow show. Big deal. Maybe I am different than most people. I am not "involved" merely by seeing actors acting emotionally, I need build up. I need to see why they are acting emotionally. I need to know why they are sad or happy to get involved. Rebekah was rather annoying.

I disagree that in the dream Betty fails professionally. According the the talent agent, she has a great future ahead of her. Diane leaves a professional opportunity to help Camilla. It is like Diane is blaming her professional failure on her relationship with Camilla.

As QA-Tomato says, Dianne is "insulating herself against her own failure". But I don't see this as being uniquely applicable to the entertainment industry. I could see this same movie being done in New York about two Wallstreet floor traders. It wouldn't have the glamour of Hwood, but it would have worked fine.

To answer your question, (by the way, Betty and Rita were in the audience, they were not on a balcony, the blue-hared woman was on a balcony), I think that Lynch was going for the Glitz and Glamour of Hwood. That is why he set it in Hwood. I do believe he was taking an disguised punch at the Hwood entertainment industry for not taking care of it's failures, but I don't see it as a main theme of the movie.
Aug 2, 2002 2:52 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Quasimodem
I could see this same movie being done in New York about two Wallstreet floor traders. It wouldn't have the glamour of Hwood, but it would have worked fine.[/QUOTE]
I gotta disagree with you there........for me, the Hollywood tie-in is part of what makes Diane as tragic she is to me. <i>Rejection</i> for an actor is probably THE most <i>personal</i> type of rejection anyone could experience 'professionally'. They don't reject your 'product', they reject <i>you</i>. For an emotionally distraught person, who also happens to be an <i>actor</i>, I would think any 'professional' failures would be all the more devastating because of that.

Given this, I don't think the 'personal/professional failure' theme would be NEARLY as resonant <i>without</i> the Hollywood setting.


Plus, Hollywood attracts dreamers........and somehow, I think that 'tragedies' are always more heart-breaking when dreamers are involved. Maybe it's just me


Neely
Aug 2, 2002 5:52 PM
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