Very opening scene... falling into the pillow.

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Remember this brief scene where the camera almost falls into a pillow for sleep? Was this happening to Diane in reality, showing the beginning of her sleep; aka her dream/fantasy?
Jun 16, 2003 9:19 AM
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Most people would believe so.

This is maybe half of one answer to one Lynch's 10 clues:

"Pay particular attention to the beginning of the film: at least two clues are revealed before the credits."



Much discussion/argument has raged about the possible other clues also contained in the film before the credits. There's certainly 1, maybe 2, who knows, possibly even 3, before we see Rita, beginning her descent.

The first time I saw the film I was aware of the clues, but didn't want to follow them too closely, as i felt it may dilute my enjoyment of it were I treating as a puzzle, playing detective, and trying to solve it. I found it pretty impenetrable at first viewing. Second time I saw it i was more familiar with the clues, but still didn't feel I was getting close to any kind of 'answer' or 'understanding', at least in terms of narrative.

It took a little internet research (the Salon article, mainly) to get a grip by the time I'd watched a further couple of times.

The two scenes book-ending the 'dream' are clearly, very obviously, attempting to nod us in the right direction. That so many people miss the significance of these scenes (including myself) in early viewings is quite ridiculous, given Lynch's love of the use of dreams in his other work.
Jun 19, 2003 1:03 AM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by blu-riven
Most people would believe so.

This is maybe half of one answer to one Lynch's 10 clues:

"Pay particular attention to the beginning of the film: at least two clues are revealed before the credits."



Much discussion/argument has raged about the possible other clues also contained in the film before the credits. There's certainly 1, maybe 2, who knows, possibly even 3, before we see Rita, beginning her descent.
[/QUOTE]

Before the credits means before the credits. The credits start with Justin Theroux's name as the limo is cruising up Mulholland Dr. The opening credits end just before we see Rita's face for the first time.

My only guess is that Lynch might believe that the dance scene is such a blur of images that clues will be missed. He's probably right.
Jun 19, 2003 4:54 AM
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True, but I believe that Lynch is unfortunately having to try to explain himself with the pillow scene. Overtly signalling that we are going into dreamland.

(ct - I may have been editing and adding to my post as you replied?)
Jun 19, 2003 5:37 AM
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Where can I find Lynch's "10 clues"?

I've read somewhere that the location of the aunt throughout the entire movie is a big point in the story... wasn't she dead throughout the entire movie?

edit: found it on the forum's website.
Jun 19, 2003 10:49 AM
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she shoots herself and dies as she falls into the pillow. listen to the sounds. just before the fade from the image of her with the old couple fades to the POV into the pillow there's a kind of "whoosh" which is the sound of a gunshot (why should it be loud?) and she takes her last breaths as she dies and falls onto the bed. so everything in the movie isn't a dream (if it is it's pure wish fulfillment of a dying woman). in a way, her life "flashes before her eyes". more or less, what her life has dwindled to is what occupies her mind the most... yes, i know. and then uh, let's see. supposedly in the "end" juuuuuust before she shoots herself (or remembers shooting herself), just before the sound of the gunshot, you hafta watch and listen closely, the blurry image of lights/the washed out trio/betty & rita flashes on the screen (the light at the end of betty's tunnel?) which mirrors the "clues" before the credits. and then... hm, recalling memento lenny was right (even if he was making it all up): memory isn't the truth. so diane's really dying throughout the entire film, we're just spying in on her dying wishes... and unfortunately, passing judgement. again, remember that purple=penitence. oh and also, remember that life begins and ends with woman... :p too bad she had to suffer so much but her reward is great in heaven.







just kidding.
Jun 19, 2003 11:26 AM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by blu-riven
True, but I believe that Lynch is unfortunately having to try to explain himself with the pillow scene. Overtly signalling that we are going into dreamland.

(ct - I may have been editing and adding to my post as you replied?)
[/QUOTE]

Say blu, and Kubrick fan par excellence ...

O.K. so we both see the pillow scene as overt ...

and we both acknowlege Lynch's interest in dreams ...

so the difference seems to lie in your thought around Lynch unfortunate need to explain himself ...

I hope you're wrong. He's never explained his films in the past and I hope he never does.

But maybe I'm missing the clue ....

Could be ..... who knows ..... (oops almost went into song from West Side Story)

Meanwhile, it's rained in Connecticut probably 15 out of the last 20 days ...

I'm singin' in the rain, just singin' in the rain ....

sorry, back to the point ... if I have a point, I think maybe the water is got to me head ...

I might not know a clue if it bit me ...
Jun 19, 2003 1:28 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by ctyankee
Say blu, and Kubrick fan par excellence ...

O.K. so we both see the pillow scene as overt ...

and we both acknowlege Lynch's interest in dreams ...

so the difference seems to lie in your thought around Lynch unfortunate need to explain himself ...

I hope you're wrong. He's never explained his films in the past and I hope he never does.

But maybe I'm missing the clue ....

Could be ..... who knows ..... (oops almost went into song from West Side Story)

Meanwhile, it's rained in Connecticut probably 15 out of the last 20 days ...

I'm singin' in the rain, just singin' in the rain ....

sorry, back to the point ... if I have a point, I think maybe the water is got to me head ...

I might not know a clue if it bit me ...
[/QUOTE]So, let's try to pick up the clues before the credits...
[list]
Jitterbug Scene Clue 1 - All those red heads dancing, is one Aunt Ruth?
Jitterbug Scene Clue 3 - Old folks (Grandparents?) are accompanying her.
[/list]
Are you thinking anything else ct?

Do we accept the Jitterbug scene as a part of reality?

Or, if this is subjectively twisted by Diane's poisoned brain, can we say this is unreliable as to the truth of Diane's past?
Jun 20, 2003 1:17 AM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by blu-riven
So, let's try to pick up the clues before the credits...
[list]
Jitterbug Scene Clue 1 - All those red heads dancing, is one Aunt Ruth?
Jitterbug Scene Clue 3 - Old folks (Grandparents?) are accompanying her.
[/list]
Are you thinking anything else ct?

Do we accept the Jitterbug scene as a part of reality?

Or, if this is subjectively twisted by Diane's poisoned brain, can we say this is unreliable as to the truth of Diane's past?
[/QUOTE]

First. It is Betty not Diane who is acclaimed the winner of the competition. Does that change your thinking?

Second. Caveman Clue. http://www.rottentomatoes.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=2310205&t=6084#post2310205

Third. Caveman Clue links to another film (at least).

Fourth. Another film link.

Five. Wizard of Oz. Think about it.

Six. Check out the Mulholland Dr. sign. Certainly people have mentioned the Sunset Blvd. link (which I agree with) but that not all. Have you ever notice a reflection of light like the shining of the car lights off a sign in real life? Notice the on/off pattern of lights (revisit this clue after you've taken the red pill).

Seven. Blu, check my last post. I left a clue to MD. Not to the opening scenes but a clue nonetheless. Let me know if you need another clue.

Sorry, if this post is scattered, but my first attempt went bye, bye and now I just want to take an axe to my computer screen.
Jun 20, 2003 5:26 AM
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Before I have a think about the rest of your post (probably all weekend now!),[QUOTE]Originally posted by ctyankee
First. It is Betty not Diane who is acclaimed the winner of the competition. Does that change your thinking? [/QUOTE]Yes, it does. Can you elaborate on why this is your belief?
Jun 20, 2003 6:28 AM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by blu-riven
Before I have a think about the rest of your post (probably all weekend now!),Yes, it does. Can you elaborate on why this is your belief? [/QUOTE]

As the cheering subsides, there is a bellow of BETTY! from the crowd. Headphones are probably the best way of catching this clue ...
Jun 20, 2003 7:29 AM
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I didn't catch the crowd saying "BETTY!" ...so this means that Diane was in dreamland before she falls into the pillow? ...wtf?
Jun 20, 2003 8:53 PM
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LOL!
Jun 20, 2003 9:19 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by ctyankee
As the cheering subsides, there is a bellow of BETTY! from the crowd. Headphones are probably the best way of catching this clue ... [/QUOTE]Bloody hell! I definitely need to get my flippin' DVD back from that unreliable mate. Mulholland Drive can really make your head hurt on a monday morning.

I'm trying to put a finger on the significance of that revelation. The jitterbug scene was not a part of the pilot, right? That definitely lends importance to this scene. But how and why is she Betty now?

My head hurts...
Jun 23, 2003 1:42 AM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by ctyankee
I'm singin' in the rain, just singin' in the rain ....[/QUOTE]Ok, I see know. :rolleyes:

But before that can of worms gets opened, i'd like your take on exactly how Betty 'exists' before the dream begins, cos I can't quite see it.

Are you suggesting that this persona is an escape used often by Diane, waking and not, when life gets a bit too messy?

Or what...?

[edit (after a little thought)...]

Hang on, things are beginning to click into place now.

The jitterbug contest does not exist literally. :rolleyes:

Betty is created by the incident which the Jitterbug contest is a metaphor for. That's why we see a glowing Betty at the end of it. She is born of the incident. Before the 'jitterbug contest' there is no Betty. After, Betty is created as a kind of comfort blanket for Diane to lose herself in.

This is not the first time that Diane has dreamed she is Betty. This is probably a recurring dream, waking and asleep, that she cannot rid herself of. This alter-ego is probably beginning to take over as the dominant personality. Diane is schizophrenic, possibly bi-polar too. Whatever, she is seriously damaged mentally, by both the actual occurences in her life and the creation of Betty.

So, the 'jitterbug contest' is the catalyst for Diane's move to L.A. And it did lead to acting, ya know, wanting to act.
Jun 25, 2003 12:47 AM
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Well, let's break it down .. Hammer time ....

Options for the dance scene include:

Betty dreaming of Betty's dance
Betty thinking about Betty's dance

Diane dreaming of Betty's dance
Diane thinking about Betty's dance

Another person dreaming of Betty's dance
Another person thinking of Betty's dance

Lynch's portrayal of Betty's dance

I called it 'thinking' so as not to get into a discussion of whether the dance is a fantasy or a perceived reality.

In concert with the with the pillow falling into scene, there are a myriad of options - depending on whether you consider it a dream, reality or a memory and also whose dream, reality or memory it might be.

Then we could consider whether the order of events is sequential or not and even if they are sequential whether there is a significant time lag between events.

That is a lot of options ...

I'm not a fan of the falling into the pillow scene. As I've never had a dream when I dreamed I fell asleep nor thought about a made-up persona and then had a dream about that character - some of the options just seem very weak.

I really haven't found an option I do like. Perhaps the third party fantasy/dream works somewhat o.k. Camilla thinks/dreams about the Diane that died. She concentrates on the good Diane (Betty) and puts Diane to sleep so that she can concentrate on that fantasy emerging and the innocent Camilla (Rita) spending time again with sweet Betty.

Of course, in dreams the dreamer needs to wake up (literally and figuratively) and Camilla is stuck with the reality that is the waking up Diane and the reality that is herself (and her guilt).
Jun 25, 2003 12:49 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by ctyankee
...nor thought about a made-up persona and then had a dream about that character...[/QUOTE] Hmmmm. Me neither. But I s'pose it would depend on the depth to which Diane obsesses about this character. If there is a touch of schizophrenia to all this (and there may well be) then Diane may fall asleep believing she is Betty. I dunno.

Maybe it's all dreamed by the bum, as Harry suggested.

But I don't really accept a third-party theory. I believe that, in Mulholland Dr, there is dream and there is true reality, and there is various distortions of reality. The film is shot so subjectively in parts from Diane's POV, that I cannot accept it is being dreamt by another. The answers lie in Diane and Betty, i feel, not others.

You echo Dune... *The sleeper must awaken*

Give me some Melange. Then the answers may come!
Jun 26, 2003 1:25 AM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by blu-riven
But I don't really accept a third-party theory. I believe that, in Mulholland Dr, there is dream and there is true reality, and there is various distortions of reality. The film is shot so subjectively in parts from Diane's POV, that I cannot accept it is being dreamt by another. The answers lie in Diane and Betty, i feel, not others.
[/QUOTE]

One of my early theories was the Bum is Betty. Whether she is really the same person or just the one having the dream are both possible. Seems to me that would do away with your issue of the dream being dreamt by others.

It also helps explain the period (dated) things that crop up like the old light switches and the old style perfume sprayers etc.

However, the bum as Betty or being the dreamer has its weaknesses. Chief being that the Through the Eyes (P.O.V.) that Lynch uses. Herb or Dan get this (outside Winkie's) , Rita gets this (looking at the cube) and Betty gets this (going through Aunt Ruth's Apartment. Certainly they could be one person's memory but if they are part of a dream - I really have a problem with any dreamer being multiple people in the same dream.

One could make a case that (if it is a dream) that Herb getting a P.O.V. shot and then seeing the Bum (as third person P.O.V.) is a direct conflict.

Same thing after Club Silencio when Betty is gone and Rita is the last one standing - if the answer lies in Diane/Betty why doesn't the answer also lie in Camilla/Rita?
Jun 26, 2003 5:01 AM
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Maybe we're reading a bit too much into this name thing. Maybe Diane IS Betty Elms, and Diane Selwyn is a stage name. In this case, the fantasy's could be idealized memories.

~Katie~
Jun 26, 2003 12:19 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by the_kid_with_the_helmet
Maybe we're reading a bit too much into this name thing. Maybe Diane IS Betty Elms, and Diane Selwyn is a stage name. In this case, the fantasy's could be idealized memories.

~Katie~
[/QUOTE]

the problem is her neighbor (who switched apartment with her) DOES NOT know nor recognize Betty Elms... although she knows about Diane Selwyn.
well she doesnt recognize Rita either...:confused:
Jun 26, 2003 6:41 PM
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