Pilot as problem solver??

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Having printed and read the pilot script for MD i thought that i'd return to one of the questions from one of my first posts and put something to bed that i'd wondered about since my first viewing of this fabulous film. The scene immediately following the discovery of the "dead blonde" in Sierra Bonita always confused me, with the scissors and the hair, and most of all, the ambiguous "I know what you have to do but let me do it." (for some reason i'd assumed that this scene was not in the pilot, but added later).

It's obvious that Rita needs to change her appearance. But why?? The pilot makes it clear that the trauma of the discovery of the body acts as a kicker to bring back Rita's memory. It goes on to make it clear that what ever Rita has to hide from is pretty damn serious. To quote Rita (from the pilot)...

"... now we know why I was so afraid. We know what kind of trouble I'm in..."

Of course the script isn't stupid enough to let us in on what, but it's significant enough to me to suggest that this particular issue can't be resolved satisfactorily (in my eyes) without remembering that this is a converted pilot (surely we would have been let in on the secret eventually). Remembering this fact, to me it seems amazing how Lynch did manage to tie up so many loose ends (and how many he had to cut). Louise Bonner is tidied up a little also. Finishing reading the script it struck me how many different directions he could, and would, have taken this.

It's tragic that the series was never made, and while it takes nothing away from the film as it stands alone (we may not have had the masterful party scene), i still can't help feeling mugged of something that could have, no, would have, been genuinely brilliant. In the truest sense of the word.

Gutted. But still recommended reading.
If only for raising the question, would it have been a dream?
However, i'm still gutted.
The ABC execs want shooting.
:mad: :mad: :mad:

For any who haven't seen the script but wish to do so, here's the link, it's been posted up many times before but for convenience, and anyone who hasn't seen it...

www.lynchnet.com/mdrive/mdscript.html
Mar 5, 2003 12:34 AM
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yes, this scene u refer to would lead us to believe that Rita killed her girlfriend Diane Selwyn, and that is why she's got the bloody money in her purse and has this compulsive phobia for "Men in Black" :cool:

before this slides into sex and surreality of the Club Silencio, we would bet that Rita killed Diane, or got her killed, or maybe she was commited to her in some nasty business that eventualy got one of them killed. which makes Rita a suspect anyway and/or an accomplice.

yet Betty is not scared to find out the mystery is about a murder.
quite unexpectedly, it drags her closer to Rita, so close they immediately make love...

a divertion Lynch uses to break the storyline, and discard a major evidence in Rita's memory puzzle. the movie quit the "Diane murder" plot to rush into "something completly different"


when we realize all this is a dream, the logical structure doesnt worry us anymore, and we begin to question everything we have seen so far... maybe to prepare us to the oncoming "flashbacks" experience.
Mar 5, 2003 5:05 PM
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I agree that screenplay pilot is a very helpful perspective on the movie.

We've had this discussion/disagreement before, but I'm not tired of it yet: I think a big issue is whether David Lynch at some level of his mind knew where this story was going if it were to convert into a TV series: specifically would the parallel worlds of Diane/Camilla & Betty/Rita emerge.

Honestly, my gut feeling says there's no reason to believe that it was destined to go that way. But then again, maybe I forgot what the lesson of Sliding Doors was supposed to teach me about the randomness of fate. :cool:
Mar 5, 2003 7:13 PM
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[QUOTE]before this slides into sex and surreality of the Club Silencio, we would bet that Rita killed Diane, or got her killed, or maybe she was commited to her in some nasty business that eventualy got one of them killed. which makes Rita a suspect anyway and/or an accomplice.[/QUOTE] or even more scary for Rita, next in line to be disposed of.
[QUOTE]a divertion Lynch uses to break the storyline, and discard a major evidence in Rita's memory puzzle. the movie quit the "Diane murder" plot to rush into "something completly different" [/QUOTE] Wonder if Lynch is a Monty Python fan??;)
Mar 6, 2003 12:22 AM
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(Having recently read Monty Python's All the Words, I wouldn't be surprised if David Lynch was a Python fan because so much of that humor refers to philosophic issues, art, absurdity, irony, etc.)

WARNING: Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me SPOILERS

But today's topic that relates to this thread is "Twin Peaks", another TV series that "Mulholland Dr." presumably would have launched.

I finally saw Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me, and it struck me "was Twin Peaks a 'reality' world?" I think there was even a line "this is all in a dream" tossed into that 1992 movie.

Seriously, even after the "X-files", do we think the FBI uses brightly-dressed interpretive dancers to give warnings about how uncooperative the local authorities will be? Do we think one-armed men are driving around trying to give warnings to Laura Palmer about who Killer Bob really is? Or little boys wearing paper-mache Dick Nixon masks whispering warnings? (with these characters and agent Cooper appearing in each others' dreams?)

Perhaps.

But wouldn't it fit "our logic" ("our" referring to the "conventional interpretation" as applied to Mulholland Dr. the 2001 theater released film) to think that all those "inconsistencies" were part of someone else dreaming in a "reality" world as most of "us" think Mulholland Dr. is part of Diane's dream?

If ABC had okayed the "Twin Peaks" TV series for as long as NBC kept "Cheers" or "Hill Street Blues" going as a prestige loss-leader for another couple years, would we have stumbled into an overall dreamer of this whole world?
Mar 6, 2003 1:35 PM
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Indeed there are alternative, and to others, ultimately satisfactory spins that could be placed on this scene (and any other for that matter). And the points argued exquisitely by Tristan above show that. My mind has swung so many different ways since I pitched up here not so long ago, and the best thing about this forum for me is the variety and depth of thinking that goes on. It always seems difficult to offer an ?answer? in text without it seeming to be a slight on others offered (and there are plenty offered!!!! )

The Pilot script, for me, seems to indicate a ?straighter? story (no pun intended), it leaves you with mysteries to be unravelled, characters to be developed, but narrative seems traditional, and seems to suggest that it will proceed so, at least in the immediate future of these characters. There was a theory (posted up here somewhere ? I think) that over the course of the season the mysteries would be explained and characters developed by showing the events that took place from differing perspectives. This ties in with MindTravel?s (mostly ignored) ?Blue box is a cube? thread, offering up the cubist perspective of showing everything all at once. Although in this case I suppose over 7(?) hour(?) long episodes. Would probably have ended up like Pulp Fiction on acid.:cool:

But Tristan is right, the key definitely suggests a certain surrealism, and the final described camera shot (into the purse and focusing and lingering on the key ? my words not DL?s) suggests its significance to the plot planned at that time. I suppose it?s impossible to try and predict this man?s movements, he?s just too damn slippery!
Mar 7, 2003 4:22 AM
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I saw 'Persona' only recently, and I don't actually recall a clear shot reconstruction by Lynch in 'Mulholland Dr.'

What I do recall, though, is the newsreel footage of the burning monk which (in a sense) kicks off the arc of the story via Elisabeth Vogler's acute reaction.

Is the charred 'Bum' of Lynch's film an echo of the burning protestor of 'Persona?'

Is the hapless Dan a kind of echo of Vogler's point of reaction?

Is Herb the counterpart (professional medical) of Alma?

Is the abandoned child of 'Persona' also echoed somewhere by Lynch?

And is Winona still waiting for her cheque?
Mar 7, 2003 6:49 AM
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Just to get a little philosophical here: I find it interesting that as we discuss the might-have-beens of what it would have been like if "Mulholland Drive" became a TV series, we ourselves are constructing an imagined, "alternative reality."

Some might say, "well it didn't so get over it." I understand that point of view.

On the other hand, in our real lives we do this all the time about past events & decisions (play "what-if" or regret games about the past & the future).

In fact, it would be quite "real" for Diane to day-dream and visualize Camilla if she had just ordered her to be murdered. It would be perfectly "sane" to have memories of her past affair and wonder where things went right & went wrong.

(That might support the "standard interpretation".)

On another hand, I think it would be quite "real" for Diane to imagine what it would be like to imagine alternative futures, including one where she shoots herself, or dare I say one where she contemplates ordering the murder of Camilla.

In my current understanding of the world, only one "reality" went forward: the one where ABC rejected the series and David Lynch salvaged this movie. This seems like it's turning out well, but who knows what the other one would have been like.

Maybe someday we'll find out that we can experience that alternative reality or that this is someone else's dream. I doubt it, but perhaps it's true.

Meanwhile, I better get my rent paid. :eek:
Mar 7, 2003 3:13 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by bellabuddy
John Merrick wanted to "sleep like normal people". Maybe that's what Betty was trying to do?

I noticed that the music, when we see Betty's and "Rita's" faces blurred, 'travelled' into and ended on a key and harmony directly related to Barber's "Adagio", which was used when Merrick lied down on his bed.
[/QUOTE]
John Merrick was Elephant Man, another David Lynch film, right?

After seeing Twin Peaks: Fire Walk With Me and seeing lots of obvious reference (of course :rolleyes: ) I'm further convinced that David Lynch is stretching film conventions by blatantly have his films refer to each other.

I think of "Sylvia" is "of the forest" so "Sylvia North story" is either "of the north woods story" like "Twin Peaks" or his own story.
Mar 8, 2003 12:59 AM
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[QUOTE]After seeing Twin Peaks: Fire Walk With Me and seeing lots of obvious reference (of course ) I'm further convinced that David Lynch is stretching film conventions by blatantly have his films refer to each other.[/QUOTE] Although other directors have referenced their films in others; Kubrick(slyly), Tarantino(cutely) and Danny Boyle(overtly), DL's films go a step further in that not only do they reference each other, but actually kind of cohabit. I cannot think of another current (reasonably mainstream) director whose films could be called 'a body' of work in the way that DL's could. Please shout me down if you feel i'm wrong. As has been posted before, his films do kind of come from an alternate place, the oft-quoted Lynchland. Each film could be seen as another piece in the jigsaw or a look through the window, or a peek behind the curtain (a Lynch fave) into somewhere where time and space can and do run forwards, backwards and round-and-round. Human nature can be at it's extremes of good and bad, and surreal is real.

To watch these films, and draw out strands of theme that run common through all of them, and to actually see Lynch's progress is an absolute joy. Although his films are all independent works, to get the most out of his films you need to be familiar with his others (IMO).
Mar 8, 2003 8:14 AM
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yep. DL himself confess his movies are totally independant from each other. and i believe him.

the fact his work is so above the mainstream, in another dimension that is particular and exclusive to his work, it appears to us that they have a lot in common and refer to each other. but that is only because they ahve no other point of reference than other movies from the same director.

of course each director portrays himself and his own set of concerns in his work (nobody honest can get away from this), but if he uses the same material (dreams, symbols, clues, subconscious, untold stories...) each of his new work is a separate exploration of reality, with another issue to paint.

The Straight Story is to me the anti-Lynch movie, because there is no monsters, no nightmares, no overwhelming reality distorting your vision, no plot twist, no timeline bending.

and it proves Lynch can operate with any medium, use the most boring plot and make it an amazing experience! because he masters what cinema is all about, and has an intuitive understanding of life and human characters.
Mar 8, 2003 10:07 AM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by blu-riven
Although other directors have referenced their films in others; Kubrick(slyly), Tarantino(cutely) and Danny Boyle(overtly), DL's films go a step further in that not only do they reference each other, but actually kind of cohabit. I cannot think of another current (reasonably mainstream) director whose films could be called 'a body' of work in the way that DL's could. Please shout me down if you feel i'm wrong. As has been posted before, his films do kind of come from an alternate place, the oft-quoted Lynchland. Each film could be seen as another piece in the jigsaw or a look through the window, or a peek behind the curtain (a Lynch fave) into somewhere where time and space can and do run forwards, backwards and round-and-round. Human nature can be at it's extremes of good and bad, and surreal is real.

To watch these films, and draw out strands of theme that run common through all of them, and to actually see Lynch's progress is an absolute joy. Although his films are all independent works, to get the most out of his films you need to be familiar with his others (IMO).
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by HarryTuttle
yep. DL himself confess his movies are totally independant from each other. and i believe him.

the fact his work is so above the mainstream, in another dimension that is particular and exclusive to his work, it appears to us that they have a lot in common and refer to each other. but that is only because they ahve no other point of reference than other movies from the same director.
[/QUOTE]
Maybe you two agree with each other, I can't tell.

Here's how I resolve what appears to me to be a paradox: the unconscious mind.

I think that David Lynch gets his creative drives by going into his own dark Lynchland neurosis in a dreamlike process. He takes steps of creative faith without deliberately trying to make a trilogy saga. I don't think he deliberately connects the Blue Velvet kid as growing up to become Agent Cooper. I don't think he consciously connects the Fire Walk With Me cigarettes on the floor of the dance hall aftermath (where Laura Palmer prevents her friend from following her into hell) as a connection to the Mulholland Dr ashtray. But I do think his unconscious makes those connections.

I also think that his power to reach & disturb universally comes because we all have these dark secrets in our own unconscious boxes too.
Mar 8, 2003 2:13 PM
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what u point out are only details, artefacts, props... that is spawn by the "style" of the director.

if u look hard enough, u could find those cigarettes in many movies, and interpretate it as an unconscious reference to it.

but i agree with u that the director's subconscious has a lot to do with his own production. and if u like to read his whole work as a therapy, then u will find the common factor being David Lynch, his dreams and his childhood

i am partisan of this point of view.

it doesnt mean that one movie is directly linked to the next one, the go-between is always David himself.
if Jeffrey Beaumont in Blue Velvet is related to Agent Dale Cooper in Twin Peaks:FWWM, then it is thru David Lynch, by the process of his unconscious, not in an artistic way to produce a "saga"
Mar 8, 2003 5:02 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by HarryTuttle
what u point out are only details, artefacts, props... that is spawn by the "style" of the director.

if u look hard enough, u could find those cigarettes in many movies, and interpretate it as an unconscious reference to it.
[/QUOTE]
Maybe, maybe, maybe ;)

One scene in Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me really convinced me that something spooky was going on. Right after Laura & Leland Palmer have a confrontation at the intersection with the one-armed guy shouting about a can of corn (or something?). Leland pulls his convertible into a repair shot to collect his thoughts (and some flashbacks ensue).

Anyway, there's a shot of the windshield with a sticker in the lower, driver's side corner & there's a square sticker with "1" on it. This seems to correspond to the scene in Mulholland Dr. where Adam shows his actor how to make out with Camilla Rhodes (not in the Sylvia North Story) where there's a square sticker with an "A" on it.

We know that "A" sticker was a WW2 gasoline ration sticker & maybe someone from Washington State will tell us that half the cars there get "1" & half get "2"--if so, I'll be less awed. OTOH ("on the other hand") if not, I think those two shots are further linked, and so is an incest theme in MD.

Sure, Fire Walk with Me has blue or red spotlit singers vs. the opposite color background, which seems to follow the fashion of Blue Velvet & MD. It becomes a semantic question and/or opinion how much to link such "corresponding scenes" or whether to treat the films as independent.

My answer is to do both. It's similar to whether to think of female & male humans as belonging to the same or different species. Sometimes it helps as in considering how the heart, lungs & toes usually work. OTOH, when considering behavior, motivations, other organ systems, one probably does as well to consider females & males different species.
Mar 9, 2003 4:08 AM
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Tristan,

(Thanks for the encouragement )
OK, this is what i've been thinking re: this scene. The line discussed, "I know what you have to do but let me do it" still seems like an indicator that Rita's memory has returned, and Betty is helping her change her appearance. Only I feel we've missed something, somekind of dialogue on the way back from Sierra Bonita or something. Maybe the dissolve Lynch uses indicates there's a jump in the dream here straight to the sink with the scissors. Are we to fill in the gap after exiting Sierra Bonita, or are we to assume that they instantaneously flash back to Havenhurst. The jump is disorientating, and is no doubt meant to be so. I don't know. :confused:
One of the first questions i ask myself is this... Is Betty aware that she is dreaming? I believe that the answer is no. If she is not aware then any fantasy she constructs she believes in 100%, to her it is reality, hence the amnesia is believed in 100%. This gives Lynch the license to continue with the same plot device he was going to use in the pilot, to bring back Rita's memory, ever-so obliquely, only without it being confirmed to us with the line in the pilot "now we know what kind of danger i'm in".
Does it not seem sensible that with the memory, also returns a certain confidence? The pass at Betty, climbing into bed naked with her for f**ks sake!:eek:

Until now she has been a frightened rabbit caught in the headlights, never fully removing herself from the car-wreck.
Then of course, Silencio; remembered, dreamed, prophesied.
The dream now begins to cruelly deteriorate beyond Betty's control as her poisoned subconcious begins to appropriate itself. With the dread of the discovered box, now maybe Betty does realise this is a dream...
"This is all an illusion".

Blu.

ps. do love the fake/real, wig/hair stuff...etc tho'.
Mar 10, 2003 5:20 AM
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in addition to the above, the line...
"Thanks for everything." (just before the sex),
could almost be construed as meaning, to paraphrase,
"Thanks for everything (but my memory has returned now and i'll be off in the morning)"
It's a term used day-to-day, you stay with friends and thank them before you leave...
Mar 11, 2003 12:25 AM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by blu-riven
in addition to the above, the line...
"Thanks for everything." (just before the sex),
could almost be construed as meaning, to paraphrase,
"Thanks for everything (but my memory has returned now and i'll be off in the morning)"
It's a term used day-to-day, you stay with friends and thank them before you leave...
[/QUOTE]

makes me think of Rita as Cinderella.

she appears like in a dream (with no shoes), then get dressed, change her hair color to go out (Silencio) and rushes back home before she disapear into oblivion.

a one night dream.

;)
Mar 11, 2003 2:40 AM
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[QUOTE]makes me think of Rita as Cinderella. [/QUOTE] Never thought of it like that, but I like it!
Suppose the first 'act' really is a fairy-tale at heart, with the second the destruction of the fairy-tale and it's spinner. ;)
Mar 12, 2003 12:33 AM
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Tristan,

We're obviously very close to each other on this one ;).[QUOTE]I agree that after the frightful experience with the corpse shocked her back into memory recovery, as if someone died instead/because of her (recalling the beginning attempted but failed assassination on her, so they will be looking for her to finish the job).[/QUOTE] Excellent. We are agreed on this then. [QUOTE]I agree that Diane is not aware that she is dreaming (who is?), UNTIL she wakes up from the dream.[/QUOTE] When I was a kid I used to get a recurring nightmare (empathising with Dan here) where I used to be taken away by some strange dark figure/force (typical kid's stuff). Eventually I taught myself to recognise this dream, realise I was dreaming and wake myself up. Once I had done this I realised I could spot any dream I wanted and control it. I think that this is called ?Lucid Dreaming? (a quick google-search will give you plenty of info on this). As I have grown up this skill has unfortunately declined, although sometimes I can still do it. I?m not really arguing that this is what is happening to Diane as she dreams, but I?m just throwing it out there that people can realise they are dreaming, and can consciously control their dreams :cool: .[QUOTE]You can call it confidence but I call it relief of no longer being in the dark and to be able to remember who she is and especially who is after and looking for her (both the hit men & the Detectives, now). I think they both wanted it (to f**k each other), but Betty invited her.[/QUOTE] Maybe I?m being a little picky, but the Rita of the opening pre-car crash scene is brassy, confident and strong. Much like the Camilla of the final part. So yes, with the return of memory is a relief, but also those aspects of personality return. Hence confidence. Actually, I am being picky, we are in agreement here... I think.
Mar 19, 2003 4:13 AM
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[QUOTE]When I was a kid I used to get a recurring nightmare (empathising with Dan here) where I used to be taken away by some strange dark figure/force (typical kid's stuff). Eventually I taught myself to recognise this dream, realise I was dreaming and wake myself up. Once I had done this I realised I could spot any dream I wanted and control it. I think that this is called ?Lucid Dreaming? (a quick google-search will give you plenty of info on this). As I have grown up this skill has unfortunately declined, although sometimes I can still do it. I?m not really arguing that this is what is happening to Diane as she dreams, but I?m just throwing it out there that people can realise they are dreaming, and can consciously control their dreams. [/QUOTE] I apologise for being conceited enough to quote myself, but this thread had been lost and i wanted to gauge our resident psychoanalyst's feelings on Lucid Dreaming, and how this fits in with Oedipal issues, Mulholland Dr, and life in general.

unc84steve, over to you...
Mar 25, 2003 4:56 AM
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