Been watchin you

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Joined: Feb 2003
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I've been watching this forum for a while now, and I've noticed a recurring assumption about the movie (in terms of plot) that I think is unfounded, and probably incorrect. However, I may have just missed someone else pointing out this possibility, and its being dismissed.

Without correcting the assumption (or pointing out what it is), I ask this: how do you guys answer Lynch's question about whether "talent alone" helped Camilla? (That's not the precise wording, but the idea's the same.)
Feb 17, 2003 3:25 PM
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That has exactly been my point in many a thread.

It was Diane who helped Camilla by having the mobster scare the director to cast Camilla. The hitman/diner scene is a flashback during the dinner party, but few agree with me.
Feb 18, 2003 1:03 AM
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I'm confused here.

Could we have these theories point-by-point, laid out for a closer look, with all the connections intact?
Feb 18, 2003 5:23 AM
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That's the one; thank you. I guess I just missed it being posted; but then, I still see the same assumption all over the place.

People keep answering the question as : "No, talent alone didn't help her; she was sleeping with the director." But Camilla's first big role was in a movie directed by Bob Brucker, not Adam, and there's no evidence she was sleeping with Bob Brucker. The only answer I see, that makes sense and fits the film (very well), is that Diane was NOT contracting a hit on Camilla, but rather (in a flashback, as you said) paying the gangsters to muscle Camilla in.

I apologize if this has been presented a million times before; all i can say is that I didn't see it, and I saw the "sleeping with the director" assumption occuring over and over. The "Paying the Gangsters for Camilla's Fame" interpretation makes a hell of a lot more sense.

for instance:
--Diane doesn't know to what the gangster is referring when he says she'll get the blue key when "it's" done. If she were paying for an assassination, she'd know exactly what she was paying to have done; but when paying the gangsters for help, she's not clear about what they're going to do.
--Camilla became a famous movie star. If Diane wanted to order a hit on her, she wouldn't need to bring a photo; and if she WERE to bring a photo, it seems strange that she would select an actress' photo resume (Shouldn't there be plenty of other photos of the famous Camilla?).
--"Did talent alone help Camilla Rhodes?" is one of Lynch's TEN questions for unlocking the thriller. If the answer is, "No, she was ****ing Adam," then the answer is obvious; we see that in the movie. Why would he ask a question the answer to which is obvious to anyone watching the movie? Not to mention the fact that we're given no indication that Camilla slept with Bob Brucker, or that she was sleeping with Adam before she was hired. Even if you dispute that Diane paid off the gangsters to have Camilla hired, to say that she slept her way to the top is a weak argument.
Feb 18, 2003 12:56 PM
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[QUOTE]David Lynch's 10 Clues to Unlocking This Thriller

8. Did talent alone help Camilla?[/QUOTE]This one seems too easy.

The end credits list two "CAMILLA RHODES": "MELISSA GEORGE" & "LAURA ELENA HARRING".

The Castigliane brothers "espresso scene" showed a Camilla Rhodes' photo resume with blonde actress Melissa George. She seemed to give an uninspired performance on The Sylvia North Story (Clue #3 "Can you hear the title of the film that Adam Keser is audtioning actresses for?") but gets the part due to pressure by the "Cowboy" and the Castigliane brothers ("This is the girl"-various characters)

During the dinner party, we learn dark-haired "Camilla" (played by Laura Elena Harring) got the lead in The Sylvia North Story directed by "Bob Brooker" (DVD subtitles). Diane gives Joe (often called "the Hitman") a "Camilla Rhodes" photo resume with Laura Elena Harring's picture as she says "this is the girl." During the dinner party and other scenes we have reason to conclude that Camilla used sexual favors to advance her career, most obviously with Adam.

Easy answers are "No, talent alone didn't help Camilla."

1) "Blonde Camilla" had gangsters & "the Cowboy" help her.
2) "Dark-haired Camilla" slept her way to stardom.

Alternatively, "No" with #1 unchanged & #2 changed to
2a) "Diane got Joe's help for Camilla to get help." (in Bob Brooker's The Sylvia North Story)

I'm not disagreeing with either. However, I'm wondering if it's possible for Camilla to get a "yes" answer to the question: "Did talent alone help Camilla?"

Is it possible for any actor to get a "yes" answer to such a question?

Did talent alone help Jimmy Stewart?
Did talent alone help Meryl Streep?

Is it possible for anyone of achievement to get a "yes" answer?

Did talent alone help George W. Bush?
Did talent alone help Tony Blair?
Did talent alone help Ghandi?
Did talent alone help Leonardo da Vinci?
Did talent alone help Jesus?

Oh yeah, can't forget:

Did talent alone help David Lynch?
Feb 18, 2003 4:39 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by vewatkin
The only answer I see, that makes sense and fits the film (very well), is that Diane was NOT contracting a hit on Camilla, but rather (in a flashback, as you said) paying the gangsters to muscle Camilla in. [/QUOTE]

i concur ;)
the only glitch is when Joe says there is no way back once she handed the money... which points toward assassination, rather than a corruption deal, unless he meant that there will be no refund.
Feb 18, 2003 5:51 PM
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My theory lies in Camilla's (indignant) line: "I never went to Casablanca with Luigi" (said in spanish). I think CAMILLA helped herself with the mob. She does 'favors' for Luigi, he does favors for her.

~Katie~
Feb 18, 2003 6:21 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by TristanLove

Yo <I>nunca</I> fu&iacute; a casa blanca con Luigi. I <I>never</I> went to "white house" with Luigi.

[/QUOTE]


So she was...sleeping with the president?



~Katie~
Feb 18, 2003 6:30 PM
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kool finding Tristan. maybe this is the sources of Lynch's wink.

anyway i think Camilla denies it. it doesnt mean she speaks the truth. would she confess she slept with Luigi at the dinner?
Feb 18, 2003 6:31 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by TristanLove
Yeah, but why make a big fuss about it, and the question of her talent? [/QUOTE]

to lead the way to the real purpose of the deal between Diane and Joe. :cool:

i dont see anytime in the movie where Camilla is any good, as Rita, as real Camilla, as flashback Camilla, as blonde Camilla, as Laura Elena Harring of Lynch's movie...

i think the point of Lynch is that actors have the fame the studio/media build for them.

there are bunch of talented actors who are not formated for the studios and will never make a dime of their performances.
on the other hands, how many lame actors make millions just because they are contracted by powerful studios who invest enough publicity on their heads?

MD says that all along, people are worth what they are told. if anyone, even a famous director, tries to contradict this fact, then "everything is shut down", everybody fired, and they find another puppet to make their "money makers toys".

everyone in the movie business lives by this rule, actors, directors, managers, employees, media.

and the police is still clueless...
Feb 18, 2003 7:59 PM
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i dont think Camilla makes such a big fuss about it... she rather cut it short and goes over it.
we cant even hear what is said at first hearing!

this only takes a coupla sec in the scene. and is not meant to be heard and understood. (only to MD fanatics)

the only pont of this shot was to shot unsaid "business" behind Diane's back, that she is(was) not part of.

IMHO "luigi's white house" is very well understood by who talks about it as the place of code name for Luigi's couch casting stage... like when an actress is invited to this place, everyone knows what it means (unofficialy), but it is a politicaly correct way for Luigi to get his ways.


i think true talent careers existed more in the old times, because there was less actors, and less movies to play in. so only the most talented were used.
now there are movies formated for unknown teens, who can break through the top if the flick happens to be successful...

Lynch is probably too old to care for the modern cinema...
masterpiece only becomes art long after the artist career, so Lynch can only refers to artists that are now gone.
the 60ies represent the building of his personal emotions as a teen discovering culture and art, this is the most striking period of our life for our memory, that will influence us all our life.
Feb 19, 2003 4:08 AM
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Let's see.

Diane Selwyn, a burnt-out, not-so-young, no-career, wannabe actress on the skids in Hollywood (who, just for variety, is in a lesbian relationship with a dishy, Latina, brunette, wannabe actress called Camilla Rhodes), despairing of getting any kind of career momentum happening for herself, decides to spend the last of her dead Aunt's inheritance money - perhaps between five and fifteen thousand dollars - on some local muscle to put a scare into Bob Brooker, journeyman director of the upcoming 'The Sylvia North Story,' so as to persuade him into hiring her lover - Camilla - for the leading part.

Ok, fine. Stranger things have happened.

Thing is, why doesn't Diane use that money and muscle to promote her own career?

Would it be that simple to land a part in a major motion picture? What about studio security? Haven't measures been instituted since everyone saw 'The Godfather?'

What assurances would Diane have that Camilla, pushed forward into the spotlight, would pull Diane along with her?
Feb 19, 2003 5:28 AM
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I don't think we're given any clue as to the size of Diane's inheritance. Are we? Am I forgetting something obvious? I could be wrong, but I don't see any way of even approximating.

As for buying Camilla in instead of herself:

1) The act shows the love Diane had for Camilla. Obviously, if she hadn't loved Camilla, she could have tried to buy her own way in. Unless--
2) If Diane were truly untalented (as seems to be the case), she probably couldn't expect to buy her way into the movie. It's one thing to give a talented girl her shot, but it's another to let any one with money jump into a leading role.
Feb 19, 2003 7:05 AM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rochas
Thing is, why doesn't Diane use that money and muscle to promote her own career? [/QUOTE]

...Love !!!

u missed the whole argumentation of the movie Rochas ;)

Love drives Diane crazy (literaly) and make her do stupid things... such as to believe she could get her back by offering a golden path to Hollywood!

She contracts the mob brothers through Joe, prior to party, after break up with Camilla.

When Camilla calls to invit her to the party, she knows Joe dealt things for Camilla. and Diane is a lil bitter because she knows Camilla is the special guest of Adam Kesher up on Mulholland Drive, and her a guest only invited by Camilla for an honorary thanking.

later on she realises that Camilla, boosted by her aunt's money to the top, has found her place in the Hollywood community, and doesnt need Diane at all. Diane's love being the last of her concern.

Diane feels out of place -you know how women are... she feels ugly, dressed like a bum, and with the least conversation in the world- while Camilla is there doing nothing and being the focus of the party, the attraction of Adam (the host the most powerful male in the room), Blonde Camilla (a sexy blonde who is more beautiful than herself, so she thinks), and eventualy Coco and Wilkins...

back home she depress, hopes Camilla may be grateful at some point, she expects Camilla to knock at the door when Laura comes by and this desire triggers the vision in the kitchen.
ultimately she looses all hope and nobody but the insane eldery couple enters by this door, where she expected Camilla... and puts an end to it.

i dont think Diane shows extreme ambition in her career at anytime.
except in her dream when she remembers the naivety of her arrival in hollywood with the usual dreamt up expectations of the young ingénue.

there is no more hollywood in Diane at the end... just her love and her need for Camilla, both "floating" over the night of LA.
Feb 19, 2003 2:08 PM
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I like much of this but somethings don't fit.[QUOTE]ultimately she looses all hope and nobody but the insane eldery couple enters by this door, where she expected Camilla... and puts an end to it.[/QUOTE] Is the knock at the door hallucinated (visually and aurally)??? I thought that is was generally accepted that this was "the knock" as they say in the UK, the police. DeRosa's comments about the police sniffing round seem to point this way. Would or could the police be investigating Diane as an entry point into mob corruption??
Possibly, maybe, who knows. This theory has me torn. :confused:

ps. [QUOTE]there is no more hollywood in Diane at the end... just her love and her need for Camilla, both "floating" over the night of LA.[/QUOTE] Diane does not float over Hollywood at the end. It's Betty and Rita. Re-united. A happy end after all??????
Feb 20, 2003 6:51 AM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by blu-riven
I like much of this but somethings don't fit. Is the knock at the door hallucinated (visually and aurally)??? I thought that is was generally accepted that this was "the knock" as they say in the UK, the police. DeRosa's comments about the police sniffing round seem to point this way. Would or could the police be investigating Diane as an entry point into mob corruption??
Possibly, maybe, who knows. This theory has me torn. :confused:

[/QUOTE]

I think that, too. Because I think the Rita and Betty knocking scene has to correspond with something in the second half, and it's eith the first scene when she wakes up, but I don't think it's this because there's no connection there to Betty and Rita. B and R seem almost like detectives when they're trying to get into the house, so I always assumed the final knock corresponded with the knock by Betty and Rita, the detectives, who find the body after they get into the apartment, just as the cops would.

~Katie~
Feb 20, 2003 11:36 AM
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Hi, new poster here. been following this forum for quite a while - like everyone else here I was floored by this movie- almost by accident and inspiration Lynch's best. I enjoy all the different discussions of the possible permutations of the plot - even if i think it's probably being over analysed - which brings me to my disagreement with what seems to be an accepted assumption- that the comment in spanish about going to the white house with Luigi was made by Camilla. I've run this movie many times and it seems very obvious to me that the comment was made by one of the hired staff serving the dessert - if you listen to the film with headphones, it comes from a different direction from where camilla is. Camilla's indignant reaction and Adam's comment have to do with the serving staff not showing proper deference to the occasion. A minor point , but I think it supports my feeling that Lynch was forced to bring off an amazing rescue of a dead project and didn't have the luxury of incorporating every detail into a coherent whole - but what he accomplished was glorious
Feb 20, 2003 9:33 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by quebec6
...which brings me to my disagreement with what seems to be an accepted assumption- that the comment in spanish about going to the white house with Luigi was made by Camilla. I've run this movie many times and it seems very obvious to me that the comment was made by one of the hired staff serving the dessert.[/QUOTE] I agree that the comment is made by someone other than Camilla. I was actually quite surprised the first time I read (on this forum) someone claim the line is spoken by Camilla. IMO, the voice does not sound like that of Camilla. Also, her speaking the line just does not seem to fit. For example, what is prompting her to say it?

I'm convinced that the whole dinner-scene flashback is being "editorialized" by Diane's subconscious. I believe the two lines ("I never went to casa blanca with Luigi." and "What a pity.") are interjected by Diane's subconcious in the form of "off-camera" voices. Precisely who is saying the lines really isn't all that important (nor ascertainable).

The exact meaning of the lines is difficult at best. My current sense is that Diane knows Camilla slept with Luigi to get the part in TSNS. Camilla looking all indignant is again courtesy of Diane's subconcious. The "What a pity" line probably indicates Diane regrets not sleeping with Luigi - not that it would have guaranteed her the part, but at least she would have done everything she could to get it. Maybe she was just naive at that time and thought "talent alone" was all that mattered. The timing of the lines fits well with all of this; i.e. they happen very near Diane explaining how badly she wanted the part and how Camilla got it.
Feb 21, 2003 2:00 AM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by TristanLove
...
Both Johnny and Gilda had no past before till they met Mundson. They both wanted to escape their past for a new one - a better, proseperous life of their ambitions to be 'somebody' ('you're really a nobody if you're a pauper in this town') till they crossed paths again. Both Diane and Camilla had a real shady past we don't truly know about that they both would rather leave behind or forget till they crossed paths (as someone else) again (but only in a dream-fantasy).
[/QUOTE] I haven't seen the movie Gilda, but I read the synopsis that you referenced. It's interesting that both Gilda and MD involve a homosexual relationship that is broken up when one of the participants decides to pursue a heterosexual relationship. Specifically, Mundson marries Gilda while being involved with Johnny (apparently mostly implied) and Camilla leaves Diane for Adam.
Feb 21, 2003 2:11 AM
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but spanish is hint related to Camilla/Rita not Diane...

Luigi is italian
Diane is Canadian (hey i never noticed that canaDIANE...
:eek
Adam is jewish-american

only Cookie is spanish speaking...

the question is why is there anybody speaking spanish at this dinner? this is awkward. like when Rita speaks spanish in her dream.

the waiters attending the party doesnt seem to be mexican or spanish, and would speak english to the host and guests anyway...
Feb 21, 2003 3:56 AM
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