a goof ?

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While Diane is having her hallucination, through the central window everything is green.

But one minute after, while Diane is waiting for her coffee one sees a lot of red/pink flowers through the same central window.

Either

1) the two scenes have been shot a few days one after another and the flowers have had the time to bloom. It is a goof.

2) someone has put these flowers there and it is a goof too.

3) it is intentional and again Lynch wants to leave a message. Which one?
That Diane IS IMAGING she is having an hallucination about Camilla and thus that the hallucination itself is a fantasy? Could be, because I have always been a bit surprised by the sharp transition between Diane's state of despair when she realizes she has had an hallucination, and the scene just after in which she seems ok and prepares herself her coffee.
Mar 8, 2004 12:46 PM
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gandalf36While Diane is having her hallucination, through the central window everything is green.

But one minute after, while Diane is waiting for her coffee one sees a lot of red/pink flowers through the same central window.

Either

1) the two scenes have been shot a few days one after another and the flowers have had the time to flourish. It is a goof.

2) someone has put these flowers there and it is a goof too.

3) it is intentional and again Lynch wants to leave a message. Which one?
That Diane IS IMAGING she is having an hallucination about Camilla and thus that the hallucination itself is a fantasy? Could be, because I have always been a bit surprised by the sharp transition between Diane's state of despair when she realizes she has had an hallucination, and the scene just after in which she seems quite and prepares herself her coffee.

I would agree and nice catch. I know there will be some that say that the camera angle or perspective is different (and they are right) but it does seem different to me, not just the flowers.

However, it could have been filmed at a different time of year when flowers were blooming or one shot that looks thinner might be after significant pruning. As we don't know if some of those scenes were filmed earlier than others ... it is going to be speculation (yet again).

Perhaps these small changes are just things Lynch likes to do to mess with our minds and even for first time viewers create a confusing and muddy/dizzying experience.
Mar 8, 2004 1:36 PM
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Ok we agree that perspective is not the solution.

Concerning these two scenes, one good way to avoid goofs like that is of course to shoot them one after another so that the details like these flowers do not have time to change significantly. Of course Lynch knows that and it is probably the ABC of any realisator. Lynch would probably do anything to avoid such a mistake.

But in case of troubles, for one reason or another there may be some delay between two scenes like these and it may be the reason why we see flowers in one and none in the other. They may have bloomed after a good rain in one or two days. (The weather outside seems wet. Plants are very green.)

But would Lynch shoot similar scenes like these in the same place, one many weeks after the other? It seems unlikely first for the overmentioned reason and moreover the shooting of a movie is very expensive and the schedule is very optimized to spare money. All the scenes with Diane is her kitchen should have been shot consecutively. (I don't talk about the pilot here because I suppose that nothing about the second part of the movie has been shot at that time.)

But still, the sharp change in Diane's state is stricking between the two scenes. Suppose that the lapse of time between them (in the movie time) was ten minutes during those Diane has had the time to cool down and retake her selfcontrol. Ok, but why is she then back in the kitchen at the exact place she has seen Camilla ten minutes before and looking at the place SHE was previously ten minutes before?

Of course, one can interprete that scene as if she is trying to understand how she has had such an hallucination. But it would be the only moment in the movie in which a significant lapse of time is jumped explicitely and I don't like that because all the movie is shot from Diane subjective point of view and our mind doesn't jump in time like this. This would be what I consider to be an entorse to the main rule of that movie.

If I resume:

a) Diane goes to the middle of her kitchen, in front of the second window.

b) Then one sees her in front of the RIGHT (first strange goof) window and here she looks left and sees Camilla.

c) Then she is in front of the left window, looks right at the place she was, she seems ok and then she cares about her coffee.

I think that the good solution is that Diane has imagined that she was having an hallucination: she has imagined herself on the right seeing Camilla at her own place on the left. The absence of flowers during the hallucination is here to leave a hint that that scene in which Diane is having an hallucination is not real itself.

Finally I comment, ct, on your opinion that Lynch may have left incoherent details to perturb the viewer. Said like that I completely disagree. Up to know, we have found a logic behind every detail in that movie and I am sure he never cheats with us.

What he is doing I think, and this may be what you mean, is sometime to introduce details which are supposed to have a meaning only intuitively like these mutilated "dolls" (the priest, Rita) which are not exactly dolls but which are supposed to leave in our subconscious enough information to understand the movie at another level. This is how I understand these flowers through the window too.
Mar 8, 2004 3:33 PM
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Ok, I did not see the flowers outside - due to my PowerDVD settings the contrast was too high and everything outside white. But I dicussed this scene on another board (without a satisfying result though). Certainly there is this time swap, but more significant by changing properties inside the kitchen. Watch the white paper role. The crap is in order when Diane walks windowside. When she is looking on herself from the left, it has changed like been used recently. The power strap of the coffee maker is in different place too and her hair style altered from shaggy to smooth.
Later on when Diane sits on the couch watching the key, the paper role is in order again. This is strange, because it implies that the coffee-making-scene is the one scene that is out of time, but set into the past. How can one say that she is remembering her hallucination then?

The incredible solution: After Diane fantazysing Camilla she makes her hair, uses the crap, makes coffee, fixes the crap and leaves for the couch.
The possible solution: Don┤t believe what you see. Even when Diane tells her story in waken state of mind, she is mixing past and present as she wants. After fantazysing she remembers herself having made coffee once in the past. The look over to her current position on the right might be imaginary. Ok...doesnĘt sound too possible...what more options do we have? The goof theory?
Mar 8, 2004 4:33 PM
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The white paper role has probably been used a first time to dry her tears. Thus it would explain too why she has moved from right to left after the hallucination. And then the paper role may have been used a second time for an unknown purpose or simply reput in order while she was waiting for her coffee. What has she done with the paper sheet then?

But now it comforts the thesis that the hallucination was real ... and then that problem with the flowers comes back.

When Diane goes to the second window before her hallucination, she puts her hands in her hairs and thus her hairs are more disordered. But then I don't know exactly how they have come back to the smooth style. Maybe she has simply put her hands in her hairs once again to resmooth them.

My comment that no significant jump in time in the movie is not true because we don't see Diane waiting all the time for her coffee.

Concerning the power strap of the coffee maker, I have to think about it ...
Mar 8, 2004 5:56 PM
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Perhaps there is no solution to this.

As ctyankee suggests, maybe Lynch enjoys using such tools to create a "confusing and muddy/dizzying experience". You are suggesting that Lynch is intentionally vague or confusing?!? Surely not. That would make him a troublemaker. ;)

I agree to a point though.

I believe that Lynch does intentionally throw things into his films that knock the viewer off-kilter; this so-called "weirdness" for which he is known. I think he does it for a couple of reasons. To me it seems that you can manipulate (wrong word?) the emotions and reactions of someone more easily if you have them off-guard. Lynch catches us all off-guard (at least as first time viewers) by using unexpected camera angles/techniques, sounds, plot-twists etc. Once we are off-guard he can do anything with us.

Most of the time he is castigated by sections of critics for being wilfully weird. But go out there into the street and you'll see more "weird" in 5 minutes than in 2hrs of a Lynch film. It is all around. Lynch can use his abstractions and his moments of surreal, because they are often more "real" than not.

So maybe that's what the flowers are - another tool to disorientate, and reflect the shattering powers of perception in Diane's mind. (Even in so-called 'reality'). Outward reflecting the inward.
Mar 9, 2004 1:32 AM
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Up to now, I consider that one can find a perfect logical explaination behind every detail in MD. A blue, red or pink color, a blurry object, a special sound, a moved object, a strange comment, a funny name, a specific number, everything. Lynch movies are filled up to saturations by hidden messages. He has developed his own language for that purpose and has found in the representation of dreams the freedom to construct puzzles he was looking for. Even if I agree to consider this as an artistic style, very few artists create their pieces of work in such a sophisticated way.

Really, if Diane puts her hands in her hairs as she does, there is probably a specific reason for that and Lynch wants us to ask ourself why her hairs are resmoothed a few minutes after.

The flowers could be a goof but I would not bet too much on that.
Mar 9, 2004 4:34 AM
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I don't think Diane was ever actually standing in two different places. It seems to me that Lynch is showing a mental thing in a physical form. To me Diane is just relizing how obsessed she has become with Camilla and it sickens her, so it shows her physically looking at herself and almost sneering. An excellent sceen with amazing acting by Naomi Watts.
Mar 9, 2004 4:08 PM
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DaJaysterI don't think Diane was ever actually standing in two different places. It seems to me that Lynch is showing a mental thing in a physical form. To me Diane is just relizing how obsessed she has become with Camilla and it sickens her, so it shows her physically looking at herself and almost sneering. An excellent sceen with amazing acting by Naomi Watts.
This is our theme of discussion! Not so obvious to me.

Whether her hallucination is all a fantasy or not Diane has probably started to cry remembering Camilla and then it explains the use of the paper role in any case.

The flowers are outside and can't disappear like that! BUT now I understand what happened:

Diane has moved to the CENTRAL window, looked outside and seen the RED flowers. Then she started to think about Camilla in her RED dress ( You see blu-riven I got it !!! The dress again !!! ) Thus the red flowers disappear and instead Camilla appears!

I now understand that Diane's disordered hairs are a symbol of her mental disorder. One sees her putting her hand in her hairs but probably not enough to disorder her hairs so much. This is similar to the pearl lost by Rita in the car crash, which is a symbol of her lost memory.
Since we see then Diane with her hairs back in order, I suppose that the hallucination has been a fantasy but it means too that now she is ok.

Since I am here I add an almost unrelated comment:

Remember when Betty talks to her aunt by phone, she is supposed to learn that Rita is an intruder.

Then the camera moves along the corridor and one sees first a copy of the picture of the girl with the pearl on the wall, then a first abstract picture but with some motive on it and then a second abstract picture but much more like a stereogram (Maybe this is exactly a stereogram but of course I can't verify that). One recognizes nothing in that third picture. The door opens and one sees Rita holding her head and suffering, unable to remember anything.

Thus I would say that the pictures are there to represent the movement from Betty's to Rita's states of mind: Betty is the girl with the pearl with all her memory, Rita is the stereogram.

Nice puzzles ...

(I am quite good, no ?? )
Mar 10, 2004 2:15 AM
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Just wonna add:
Above mentioned pictures are now available on our Forum website under pictures --> paintings + other wall decor
Mar 10, 2004 3:26 AM
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Bob BrookerJust wonna add:
Above mentioned pictures are now available on our Forum website under pictures --> paintings + other wall decor
Thank you, Bob. Or HT I presume?
Mar 10, 2004 3:55 AM
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a) Actually, I now think that the three pictures, the girl with the pearl earring, the abstract picture with the black and white motives, and the "stereogram" are the same picture, but to the two latters a transform has been applied like those one uses in data compression. I have not checked if this is true but I could symbollically bet on it ;) .

b) Of course, at the end when Diane is screaming, she is now completely insane if you haven't understood, and it is symbollically represented too by the fact she shakes violently her hands in her hairs, so that they are these time completely shaggy.

Is there even one tiny movement in Naomi Watts play which does not come from Lynch?

Maybe he should have win the price of the best actress. lol

It reminds me Lynch's funny comment about OJ Simpson's twisted mind. With his own owertwisted one, he should be careful. Bush may preventively decide to send him to Guantanamo!
Mar 10, 2004 5:50 AM
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Note that Diane's hairs are shaggy on the left side, and this is obviously linked to the fact that Camilla appears on the left. Thus the whole configuration of the scene is important.
Mar 15, 2004 6:29 PM
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Gandalf, I love your picture puzzle idea. How many times have you watched this movie to catch so many details?
Feb 14, 2005 3:36 PM
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Good question! I don't know exactly but many times, 50 or so.

My picture puzzle idea comes from the fact that I have read a few papers about how to compress digitized pictures with various algorithms, discrete Fourier transform... things like that. Since I am doing maths, it is more or less my field. With google you can find many examples of series of "Lena" (the top model with a white hat) pictures which are deformed little by little by using various mathematical methods.

media.skku.ac.kr/story/lena.html

I thought that Lynch may have seen such series of pictures and used the same idea by replacing the Lena picture by the picture of the girl with a pearl earring.

But to my knowledge Lynch is before all an artist, probably not an informatician or an expert in data compression. I think that either he has asked someone to do these transformed pictures for him, or maybe he has found or painted himself these pictures with that idea in mind...

Or maybe I am completely wrong...
Feb 14, 2005 7:47 PM
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Even if you're wrong it's still a very interesting idea. I like the way you think.
Feb 15, 2005 3:37 PM
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Thank you DJ
Feb 16, 2005 8:45 AM
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