silencio and the park hotel

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Lets face it. The park hotel scene has never made much sense. Why would someone in adams position go to such a sleezy place? Why did lynch film the park hotel sequence in the same building as silencio with the same actor (the mc) acting as the manager? obviously silencio and the park hotel are tied together by lynch. Both places are part of dianes dream, because "cookie" is in both sequences, diane has shown that the park hotel is related to silencio in her mind.

there is "no way" i could see adam really staying in such a ratty place. The place looks so terrible in the dream because diane sees it as a terrible place. I think it is obvious that silencio isnt a real place or a real experience of dianes, it is symbolic of something else. I see silencio as a place diane was taken to by camilla. The real camilla, not passive rita, the forceful camilla "go with me somewhere, right now!" At silencio diane realized that camilla was just using her, and that her love was just an illusion. Diane is symbolicly raped by the magician at club silencio as the blue haired lady watches coldly.

Diane was taken to the park hotel by camilla. camilla tells her she will "introduce her to a director that is a cut above the rest" Adam is waiting at the real park hotel (possibly the Park Hyatt Hotel). Diane is convinced/coerced into having a threesome. Adam would have used lines similar to those used by the cowboy. If you do what i want, you can have the good life. and things like " i can cut off your money" heard at the park hotel.
diane, in love with camilla and fearful of the consequences of refusing adam reluctantly goes along. She then realizes that camilla doesnt love her and never had. this act is horribly traumatic for diane, because she is lesbian and she was abused in a similar way as a child. Camilla sits coldly by and watches adam and diane without a word, much like her mother knew of her sexual abuse and was silent. they both are represented by the blue haired lady, cold. staring and silent.
The things that happened at the park hotel are the basic reason diane had them killed. But she was still haunted by them in the form of the evil old couple.
May 10, 2005 9:07 AM
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Very nice!
May 10, 2005 9:23 AM
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There are more than a few hints in the movie that Camilla is far more sexually sophisticated than Diane. There is also a suggestion that Camilla with the help of Adam and maybe even the blonde Camilla, toyed and teased a rather naive Diane regarding sexual matters. This is clearly a major source of her distress. Betty's response to whether she has had lesbian sex or just sex before while in bed Rita is" ...I WANT to with you" implying that Diane may have had similar sex before and NOT WANTED to do it with others. There is definitely the suggestion of sexual coercion if not outright abuse in the audition scene dialogue.

Rich, I think the scenario you outlined regarding what might have triggered Diane's finally breaking is entirely plausible. I think though that the Park Hotel is a dump because it is from Diane's world in Hollywood. Notice the difference between her apt and her aunt Ruth's. Also remember Adam is in hiding in Diane's dream, he needs to go somewhere where he can "pay cash" and perhaps be incognito.

The only real question I have is that if the old couple represent Adam and Camillas' spirits (so to speak) avenging their murders by haunting her and ultimately causing Diane suicide, why do they so seem so close to Diane at the jitterbug contest? Or such a nice old couple at the airport, presumably long before she even met the pair?

Linney James suggested Betty could "knock (Adam/Adam's project) right out of the park" All she needed to have done was show up at his casting. She did and seemed the perfect fit Adam had been looking for. She knew it and Adam knew and for a moment he hesistated and almost did NOT say "this is the girl" as he had been commanded to. But Betty walked away and thereby did NOT knock him out of the park. My take.
May 10, 2005 11:27 AM
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Lancespearman
The only real question I have is that if the old couple represent Adam and Camillas' spirits (so to speak) avenging their murders by haunting her and ultimately causing Diane suicide, why do they so seem so close to Diane at the jitterbug contest? Or such a nice old couple at the airport, presumably long before she even met the pair?
Lance,

It is Irene that Betty is close with at the airport. The old man shows up after we see Irene and Betty hand in hand. The old man said to Betty, "It was a pleasure meeting you," suggesting that they just met.

Also Betty thanked Irene for helping her on her journey. This mirrors how Camilla helped Betty to get roles.

The old couple are not literally Adam and Camilla. They are aspects of Diane that represent Adam and Camilla. Diane loved Camilla, and she was hoping that her and Adam could help with her career (or journey).
May 10, 2005 12:03 PM
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fornusLance,

It is Irene that Betty is close with at the airport. The old man shows up after we see Irene and Betty hand in hand. The old man said to Betty, "It was a pleasure meeting you," suggesting that they just met.

Also Betty thanked Irene for helping her on her journey. This mirrors how Camilla helped Betty to get roles.

The old couple are not literally Adam and Camilla. They are aspects of Diane that represent Adam and Camilla. Diane loved Camilla, and she was hoping that her and Adam could help with her career (or journey).

I think the sexual abuse still stands and the old couple represents that and still does to the end, but its still possible its multi layered. Clearly at the end when diane closes her eyes on the couch she is screaming and you hear sounds similiar to the old people or of an adult. Could very well be that Camilla and Adam brought back the evil past, and every bit of hurt in her that she had tried to forget and her putting a gun in her mouth had to do with a build up of all of this and more.
May 10, 2005 12:13 PM
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deepmovieCould very well be that Camilla and Adam brought back the evil past, and every bit of hurt in her that she had tried to forget and her putting a gun in her mouth had to do with a build up of all of this and more.
I couldn't agree more deepmovie. The "suicide" scene is very multi-layered. Not only is it a reference to how Adam raped her, it is also, in a way, a suicide. In a very real sense Diane Selwyn does die, but she is reborn as Linney James.

Diane dyed her hair red ("Let me do it. I know what needs to be done"), left the Sierra Bonita apartments (we saw a red haired woman leaving the apartments in what looked to be a limousine), and became a casting director. In Diane's fantasy an unusual amount of respect is shown to the "Great" Linney James ("But alas we can't afford her.") Actually, an inordinate amount of Diane's fantasy seems to be about casting in general. Diane, in an effort to gain control of her life, becomes a casting driector. Remember Linney James was once an actress. "I love actors. All actors. We just get a little catty sometimes." Well, true committing murder is more than a "little catty", but think of what Diane would have had to do psychologically to pull off such a transformation.

A few years ago while discussing his inspiration for "Lost Highway" David Lynch said, "Think about it: I wasn't really aware of it at the time, but it must have been inspired by, subconsciously anyway, the O.J. Simpson trial. And how O.J. Simpson's mind had to be tricked, so that he could go out and play golf, rather than commit suicide for the deed he did."

Diane put her past in a box. Then locked it and threw away the key.

I think the movie is circular. The sexually abused child escapes, then seeks an abusive relationship, and eventually becomes an abuser. The circle goes on and on...

Hollywood's casting couch is symbolic of sexual abuse. Diane is able to hide her past and remake herself as a casting director. She completes the circular and makes the transformation from abused to abuser. The roles are swapped.

The ghost images of Diane with the old couple represent how she was betrayed by someone she loved and trusted. After the "suicide" the ghost images appear again, but the parts have been re-cast. Adam's role is eliminated and Rita replaces Camilla.

I don't really have the time to flesh this idea out. There is a lot more evidence, but unfortunately I'm supposed to be working.



btw, feel free to tear my argument to shreds, or add to it.
May 10, 2005 12:36 PM
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posted by lancepearman


[QUOTE]The only real question I have is that if the old couple represent Adam and Camillas' spirits (so to speak) avenging their murders by haunting her and ultimately causing Diane suicide, why do they so seem so close to Diane at the jitterbug contest? Or such a nice old couple at the airport, presumably long before she even met the pair?[/QUOTE]
I think the whole point is, this betrayal and abuse by camilla and adam mirrors her abuse as a child and brings all those feelings of betrayal back. So the impact is doubled. Coercing someone into something sexual they dont like doesnt usually lead to murder. dianes suffering is because camilla and her mother both betrayed her and remained silent while their men abused diane. I think the old couple represent all four, camilla, dianes mother, adam and her mothers companion (step father?). I believe diane left deep river at 18 or maybe even younger which is typical of sexual abuse victims. she hasnt seen the abusers for more than 15 years and she pictures them as old looking. Camilla and adams abuse is just thrown in with the original abuse and comes out as the old couple.

the jitterbug contest is an escape that diane used during her child abuse, to "pretend to be someone else" as betty and distance herself because she could not face it. When the same feelings came back with adam, she escaped again as betty to the same place. She fantasizes that the abusers are nice and loving during this escape.

Dianes dream at the airport was a symbol of her leaving deep river, not the real departure, remember she "rolled into town" instead of flying. It depicts her leaving the abusers behind and starting a new life. But the limo view of the old folks comes from deep inside diane where she knows the same threat is still ongoing thru camilla and adam.

thanks for commenting Lancepearman
May 10, 2005 1:15 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally Posted by deepmovie
Could very well be that Camilla and Adam brought back the evil past, and every bit of hurt in her that she had tried to forget and her putting a gun in her mouth had to do with a build up of all of this and more[/QUOTE]
exactly deepmovie, it is the combination of childhood abuse and camilla's and adams abuse that drives her to suicide.

and the film ends with the bluehaired lady saying "silencio" because no one was ever aware of diane's abuse, it remained hidden forever.
May 10, 2005 1:23 PM
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"I want to with you" (but not adam)
May 11, 2005 1:43 PM
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Rich,

I have to go to work soon so I cannot give the well thought out response which I think you deserve. It is clear that you have thought this one through quite a bit. I will come back to it perhaps over the weekend. For now I will only caution that because there are so many 'loose ends" so to speak in this movie it is tempting and necessary to fill in the blanks. But, in doing so we must be careful not to rule out any other plausible explanations.

As I said before your "Adam abused or used Diane" with Camilla's involvement theory is wholly consistent with the dream and real events in the movie even though we do not actually see it. We see enough of that sort of thing to make it very likely. My views on the sexual abuse as related in the audition scene are thus: it concerns a male who is a close friend or relative AND is not with the knowledge of Diane's parents. The only relative Diane has in the movie for sure is Aunt Ruth who is mostly seen ( or others like her) leaving. I take that to possible mean Aunt Ruth possible knew about the sexual abuse but turned a blind eye, at least Diane is holding her responsible in some way.

I do not see any real evidence of Diane's parents (the old couple are too old) in the movie, RATHER I hear a reluctance on Diane's part to even mention them. Again, my thoughts on the old couple are not set in stone but I think they are very closely connected to Diane. because they have no interaction with anyone else, I take them to be aspects of Diane's psyche or character; aspects that may have assisted her in winning the dance contest and setting off to Hollywood, but eventually caused her to overreach.

Yes, the idea that the jitterbug contest was a place of escape during the "sex abuse" is again tenable however it throws away the ostensible explanation given by Diane in one of her few lucid moments that is that it was 'the thing that "sort of" led to acting' This would mean Diane did not come to Hollywood all starry eyed after winning a small contest hoping to make it big...which is one of the main themes I think Lynch is trying to explore!

I am getting late. I will write again Friday. Nice analysis. I really need to think it through again.
May 12, 2005 9:42 AM
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Thanks for the comments Lancespearman.

I dont mean to imply that the theory i'm working on is the only one possible, the film has many layers and many meanings.



[QUOTE] Yes, the idea that the jitterbug contest was a place of escape during the "sex abuse" is again tenable however it throws away the ostensible explanation given by Diane in one of her few lucid moments that is that it was 'the thing that "sort of" led to acting' This would mean Diane did not come to Hollywood all starry eyed after winning a small contest hoping to make it big...which is one of the main themes I think Lynch is trying to explore! [/QUOTE]
i think she could still come to hollywood starry eyed even if she lied about the contest. Maybe the contest was when diane was a young child, my daughter was jitterbugging and every other possible type of dance when she was 9 or 10. maybe this contest was the last really happy moment in dianes childhood because she was abused for the first time right after it. Since it is betty at the jitterbug contest, it has to be a fantasy or dream. Diane is walking to the bed to go to sleep so i think it is very unlikely she was dreaming. The presence of the old folks and betty being so happy just makes me think it is an escape. The amount of movement, clapping (as in silencio and the masturbation scene) and the caveman and sexual moves in the contest make me visualize diane escaping as betty while "something terrible is happening".
May 12, 2005 10:06 AM
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LancespearmanI take them to be aspects of Diane's psyche or character; aspects that may have assisted her in winning the dance contest and setting off to Hollywood, but eventually caused her to overreach.
Lance,

The old couple are definitely aspects of Diane's psyche. They are not literally Adam and Camilla coming back from hell to torture Diane. They are a part of Diane's fantasy that helped her to win a dance contest, and winning this contest somehow got her to Hollywood.

Now compare this contest to Betty's audition. This audition clearly references the sexual abuse Diane submitted herself to for a part in Adam's film (notice how she reached to place Woody's hand on her butt). But Diane overreached. As Bob Brooker said, "This is not a contest". Diane thought Adam and Camilla would be like the old couple and help her win stardom, but instead they only used her.
May 12, 2005 10:39 AM
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Rich, Fornus and Deepmovie,

Thanks for your responses to my posts last week. I appreciate your thoughts on the subject and I think they have helped me crystalize my own thoughts (once again).

MD is essentially about a rather naive young woman who is destroyed by the big bad city. Not a very new theme but one Lynch gives a remarkably original rendering. The most unique aspect of Lynch's treatment is that we get the story mostly thru the distorted lense of Diane's dream. This means that we must carefully distinguish between what Diane dreams led to her actions or situation and what we can reasonably conclude caused her demise, based on what we see as the facts.

I think you guys are right Diane dreams an earlier sexual abuse (the Betty/Rita audition reading) is exacerbated by the abuse she suffers at the hands of Camilla and Adam (the Betty/Woody reading). However as one of you pointed out in the 2nd reading, with the pressure of all of Hollywood around her, Betty acquiesces to the "abuse" she puts Woody's hand on her butt. Even though the director warns her "don't play it for real until it gets real", she obviously does, with disastrous consequences for them all.

My point is that however naive Diane was, she must have realised that Camilla's affections were not entirely pure. Indeed, she was getting small parts precisely because of her closeness with Camilla and Camilla's closeness with Adam and others. Diane was not innocent either, she seems to have abruptly ended a r...elationship with her neighbor to make space for Camilla. Diane was playing the game and she knew it. Don't get me wrong Diane loved Camilla and was deeply hurt by the rejection and humilation at the party, but add to that the fact that she was effectively being supplanted by the blonde Camilla, Diane was staring at a bleak, bleak future and she snapped!

I think it is still open whether Adam is killed as well or not. I can see why some would think he is, but I don't think it changes much either way. The old couple's hysterical laughter could be Diane remembering Adam and Camilla's laugh at her expense, however why Diane would place them at the end of the jitterbug contest almost one with her, eludes me, unless of course you take the jitterbug contest to represent the earlier sexual abuse experience...even then I think it would be a stretch. As someone else said it could well be layered and the old couple could also represent her earlier more positive motivations.

I think the best way to intrepret this movie is to see the true Diane as a realistic blend of the cheerful and innocent Betty and the desperate and desolate Diane.

Glad to hear Lynch is w...orking on another movie. Don't think I will ever be completely done reviewing this one and doubt the next movie will match this one, though I am hopeful.
May 15, 2005 8:22 PM
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posted by lancespearman:





[QUOTE]MD is essentially about a rather naive young woman who is destroyed by the big bad city. Not a very new theme but one Lynch gives a remarkably original rendering. The most unique aspect of Lynch's treatment is that we get the story mostly thru the distorted lense of Diane's dream. This means that we must carefully distinguish between what Diane dreams led to her actions or situation and what we can reasonably conclude caused her demise, based on what we see as the facts. [/QUOTE]

excellent summation!!




May 16, 2005 9:55 AM
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Excellent post Lance! :up:


I agree, Diane is not entirely innocent. For crying out loud, she hired a hitman to kill her ex-girlfriend! "That ain't no way to treat your wife (or ex-girlfriend), buddy. I don't care what she's done."

My only comment is how you wrote in bold letters that your thoughts have been crystallized. It is good to follow your beliefs and stick to your dreams, but you have to be careful. You don't want to end up being a paralyzed old man like Mr. Roque, or even worse, stuck in a fantasy like Maya Bond.


I apologize for the lecture. You can now tell me to go back to hell and mind my own damn business!
May 16, 2005 10:42 AM
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lancespearman wrote:


[QUOTE] Glad to hear Lynch is w...orking on another movie. Don't think I will ever be completely done reviewing this one and doubt the next movie will match this one, though I am hopeful. [/QUOTE]
lynch will give details later this week at cannes so we will find out very soon
May 16, 2005 10:02 PM
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if you read the original script for the pilot, it is the famed Beverly Hills Hotel.
i think DL later changed it into Park Hotel to give us a hint that it is a dream by someone of a different social class.......diane, at her class status, would not have seen Bev Hills Hotel and she could not envision it in her dream, all she could envision was the best hotel she has been to, i.e. the Park Hotel.... poor girl ....

edited to add:
and remember how uncomfortable she was when she was at Adam's house party? chances are that she had never been mixed with that social stratus.
May 16, 2005 10:21 PM
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pegasus82if you read the original script for the pilot, it is the famed Beverly Hills Hotel.
i think DL later changed it into Park Hotel to give us a hint that it is a dream by someone of a different social class.......diane, at her class status, would not have seen Bev Hills Hotel and she could not envision it in her dream, all she could envision was the best hotel she has been to, i.e. the Park Hotel.... poor girl ....


diane envisioned a beautiful apartment with no problem. This is dianes dream, and she envisions a nasty, dirty place because of the experiences she had there. The park hotel was used in the pilot also, only the pilot script mentions the BH hotel. lots of things are changed from the pilot script to the pilot.
May 16, 2005 10:39 PM
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richdubbya The park hotel was used in the pilot also, only the pilot script mentions the BH hotel. lots of things are changed from the pilot script to the pilot.

i think your point that adam could not have gone to such a run down hotel is excellent. but there is no conflict that park hotel was used in the pilot as well. after all the pilot has the same plot as the movie, only it is the beginning of a much longer version. what i meant is DL made it Park Hotel on purpose, as a clue.

i was just thinking about all the dreams i had myself. if i dream of going to somewhere i haven't been to, it is often based on places i have been to.

diane can picture a beautiful apartment because she had been there when she first arrive at LA. that was the best she could offer to rita in her dream.
she had never been to the top tier hotel, nor to a house like adam's, nor met with people in adam's social stratus -- as demonstrated by her uncomfrtability in the party
... and the fact that she never own a car and always go by cab and dine at the local "denny's"

of course, even for diane, it is not surprising that she could have visited BH Hotel. but with the park hotel choice, it just strengthened the idea that diane did not have any good day since she came to LA, and showed that there is no way diane could provide camilla what she is looking for (as wished in her dream) as diane has never experienced it. i think DL was trying to make a social statement here.
May 16, 2005 10:56 PM
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Fornus,

What I was trying to say was that I have become more confident of my views about this movie precisely because of my interaction on this forum. Point me in another direction and I promise I will consider it thoughtfully...truly.

Can anyone tell me when the doorway scene at Daine's apt occurred? I watched it recently with the sub-titles on and I noticed that the "door opens" and Camilla is outside. The actual sound of the door opening occurs during the previous scene. I had always assumed this scene played directly after the couch rejection scene. If I am wrong and this happened another day, what was Camilla doing visiting Diane? Does anyone see where I am going with this?

I invite any comments
May 17, 2005 12:29 PM
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